Living Death Knights, Part 2

[Hexproof]

Some stuff... Dead also has less a risk of breaking free.

I quote myself, due to the fact that people are presented with a logical argument and ignore it, after asking for one.

A: Actually missed that one and I'm sorry for that.

That only makes sense if "breaking free" is impossible for the undead. The Forsaken "broke free" and they were/are in a similar state.

B: Actually leaving the thread this time.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Some stuff... Dead also has less a risk of breaking free.

I quote myself, due to the fact that people are presented with a logical argument and ignore it, after asking for one.

A: Actually missed that one and I'm sorry for that.

That only makes sense if "breaking free" is impossible for the undead. The Forsaken "broke free" and they were/are in a similar state.

B: Actually leaving the thread this time.

Heh, Sylvanas broke them free. Same how Darion broke the Ebon Knights free.

[flammos200]

You ever hear of the Will of the Forsaken?

Basically, the creatures with the most willpower on Azeroth are the Undead.
They can break out of charm, fear, mind-control and so on.

Living are so much easier to manipulate than Undead. Mainly because the former have emotions you can easily warp and bend and twist to your ends, like the torturous voice-in-their-head that you, as Lich King, are. Undead, on the other hand, don't have to bother with such, and have a clear, focused mind that they can use to smack their way free.

Why do you think that the Forsaken broke from the Lich King's grasp, and not the Cult of the Damned in Tirisfal? Due to Undead Willpower being so much more potent.

[PurgatoryDuck]

Being mind controlled isn't so much the point as, are they dead or not? Even if you have an argument to where they are alive, there's 10x more evidence that they are not. I think a living DK is possible -if- and only if they were mind controlled -before- the fight in Acherus, because you know, that's where all the DK's of 3rd gen are made.

[Binkleheimer]

Or they betrayed their faction.
It happens.

[muhaha8]

None of the Forsaken would have ever broken free were it not for Sylvanas. To say anything but that is gross overestimation. They were mindless hordes. They had NO WILLPOWER AT ALL. Neither do the Dead DKs. They're mindless killing machines. Granted, they're capable of thinking, but they are still mindless in the sense that they kill, that's all they do, that's all they'll ever do. They are ruthless and amoral in doing so. They don't care that what they are doing is wrong. The living have that sense of twisted being, however. They know what they do is wrong. They have willpower. Enough to break free. Undead don't. Not by themselves, at least.

[CappnRob]

I think some MST3K mantra might help here: Its all just a game, its no good if you don't enjoy yourselves. Also, Warcraft lore should be taken with a few grains of salt anyways.

[Adam255]

While that is right, it's always nice to have guidelines to having fun in a game.
If there weren't a set of rules we'd be all running around godmodding, metagaming, being overpowered as hell and pretty much cause total chaos.

Rules would be efficient in a situation like this as it seems to me. Living death knights seem a little odd in general to me.

[Aphetoros]

I think it's funny we're talking about mind control when Sylvanas uses it to control her armies all the time.


Lol.

[Loxmardin]

None of the Forsaken would have ever broken free were it not for Sylvanas. To say anything but that is gross overestimation. They were mindless hordes. They had NO WILLPOWER AT ALL. Neither do the Dead DKs. They're mindless killing machines. Granted, they're capable of thinking, but they are still mindless in the sense that they kill, that's all they do, that's all they'll ever do. They are ruthless and amoral in doing so. They don't care that what they are doing is wrong. The living have that sense of twisted being, however. They know what they do is wrong. They have willpower. Enough to break free. Undead don't. Not by themselves, at least.

Even then, your character hesitates in the DK storyline when sent in to kill an old comrade of yours.

In the questline, there are several examples of the spark that was your living self. So they are not as much "mindless" as their minds are deluded, from my interpretation of things. And there's a grand difference between the sentient Forsaken and the non-sentient hordes of the Scourge. Most of the goons of the Scourge go "raaaghrlrgaglrrraa *drool, gnaw on bone*".

...Whatever made the Forsaken divert from this kind of behaviour... Well. The mindless are just that. Mindless and soul-less. Forsaken, from my understanding, still keep a sense of "I", which means they still have some form of identity. That should also, in a sense, indicate that they have souls.

And I also heard somewhere that it wasn't Sylvanas alone who freed the Forsaken. But most of them believe she did, and I don't think she intends on denying that anytime soon. I believe the Forsaken were partly responsible for breaking themselves free, as well.

[muhaha8]

Loxxy, I have no idea where you heard that. The Forsaken were the Scourge soldiers under the command of Sylvanas. When she broke free, so did they, through her.

[Aphetoros]

You forget the only reason they broke free in the first place was because of Illidan.

[Loxmardin]

/shrug

I don't know. I heard it somewhere, and presented it as a possibility. I'm not too into this entire arguement either way, but I'm more fond of making things possible rather than the other way around.

[Aphetoros]

Oh, I was talking to muhaha. You see, you're right. Not all of them were freed. Only some, and it was pretty much dumb luck for those that were. Unfortunately for our buddy Arthas, it included Sylvanas. It's why he sent the dreadlords to Tirisfal, to reign them in with their powerful mental magic.

[Zett]

In fact, it was not even Sylvanas who freed the Frosaken.
When Illidan attempted to destroy the Lich King, his powers were diminishing. In the Undead Campaing of TFT make it explicit that the Lich King was becoming weaker.
In that way, the power he had to control those mindless hordes was gone, and Sylvanas noticed that and started a "revolution" with her sisters (notice that the banshees were added only after destroying Silvermoon in WC3 , so you may guess they are high elves, having a reason to revolt against the Lich King, and vengeance, as everybody knows, is the best motivation).
The other Forsaken troops, in my opinion, are the dead raised by Sylvanas's warlocks, so thats why they are more inteligent.