Living Death Knights, Part 2

[FlyingSquirrel]

Remember, back on track.

[Aphetoros]

In fact, it was not even Sylvanas who freed the Frosaken.
When Illidan attempted to destroy the Lich King, his powers were diminishing. In the Undead Campaing of TFT make it explicit that the Lich King was becoming weaker.
In that way, the power he had to control those mindless hordes was gone, and Sylvanas noticed that and started a "revolution" with her sisters (notice that the banshees were added only after destroying Silvermoon in WC3 , so you may guess they are high elves, having a reason to revolt against the Lich King, and vengeance, as everybody knows, is the best motivation).
The other Forsaken troops, in my opinion, are the dead raised by Sylvanas's warlocks, so thats why they are more inteligent.

Actually the entire problem with the Forsaken is that they -can't- raise more of them. Their numbers are finite, hence the need for the Val'kyr. During his weakening, I believe he lost control of Sylvanas and her banshees and they went about freeing the others.

[CappnRob]

Even though the Forsaken are finite, aren't they constantly digging up new bodies at any rate? I mean, I know eventually that will run out, but eh.

[Uthaniel]

I hear people saying "Your arguements are speculation!"

...When pretty much everything said in this thread is speculation.
Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can afirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

In the end, the ones trying to abolish the living death knights are completely ignoring the fact that some people just so enjoy playing the aforementioned; If we're to remove living death knights because it's accurate to lore and completely disregard the fact that the players enjoy playing them, we might as well abolish every single event that causes the slightest inkling of change anywhere on Azeroth - And the custom places like AC, Mimeron's Anchorage, Lawless Town, Catacombs/Evil Town, as well as allowing classes to do only what their skill sets allow them to do to the letter, and of course, removing the prestige system and every single character that is already a prestige.

This may be seen as reductio ad absurdum, but if people are asking to make CotH "more lore accurate", than the very best to make it as accurate as possible should be made, right? As otherwise, wanting Living Death Knights removed while keeping everything else that breaks lore by using the claim of "Lore accuracy" would be hypocritical.

So yes, that's the logical course of action. Even at the cost of, well, fun.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I hear people saying "Your arguements are speculation!"

...When pretty much everything said in this thread is speculation.
Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can afirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

In the end, the ones trying to abolish the living death knights are completely ignoring the fact that some people just so enjoy playing the aforementioned; If we're to remove living death knights because it's accurate to lore and completely disregard the fact that the players enjoy playing them, we might as well abolish every single event that causes the slightest inkling of change anywhere on Azeroth - And the custom places like AC, Mimeron's Anchorage, Lawless Town, Catacombs/Evil Town, as well as allowing classes to do only what their skill sets allow them to do to the letter, and of course, removing the prestige system and every single character that is already a prestige.

This may be seen as reductio ad absurdum, but if people are asking to make CotH "more lore accurate", than the very best to make it as accurate as possible should be made, right? As otherwise, wanting Living Death Knights removed while keeping everything else that breaks lore by using the claim of "Lore accuracy" would be hypocritical.

So yes, that's the logical course of action. Even at the cost of, well, fun.

Hey, I only want to make them special profiles. I personally (and I know that I'm one of the biggest people against them) only want them to be Special Profiles as they are, indeed, no matter how you look at it, -special-. That's all there is to it, from my point of view.

[Aphetoros]

Even though the Forsaken are finite, aren't they constantly digging up new bodies at any rate? I mean, I know eventually that will run out, but eh.

That's in Cataclysm. They couldn't raise new Forsaken till they got the Val'kyr in cata.

[PurgatoryDuck]

I hear people saying "Your arguements are speculation!"

...When pretty much everything said in this thread is speculation.
Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can afirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

In the end, the ones trying to abolish the living death knights are completely ignoring the fact that some people just so enjoy playing the aforementioned; If we're to remove living death knights because it's accurate to lore and completely disregard the fact that the players enjoy playing them, we might as well abolish every single event that causes the slightest inkling of change anywhere on Azeroth - And the custom places like AC, Mimeron's Anchorage, Lawless Town, Catacombs/Evil Town, as well as allowing classes to do only what their skill sets allow them to do to the letter, and of course, removing the prestige system and every single character that is already a prestige.

This may be seen as reductio ad absurdum, but if people are asking to make CotH "more lore accurate", than the very best to make it as accurate as possible should be made, right? As otherwise, wanting Living Death Knights removed while keeping everything else that breaks lore by using the claim of "Lore accuracy" would be hypocritical.

So yes, that's the logical course of action. Even at the cost of, well, fun.

Hey, I only want to make them special profiles. I personally (and I know that I'm one of the biggest people against them) only want them to be Special Profiles as they are, indeed, no matter how you look at it, -special-. That's all there is to it, from my point of view.

That... Would probably be the best course of action. Yet what about the already living DK's?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I hear people saying "Your arguements are speculation!"

...When pretty much everything said in this thread is speculation.
Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can afirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

In the end, the ones trying to abolish the living death knights are completely ignoring the fact that some people just so enjoy playing the aforementioned; If we're to remove living death knights because it's accurate to lore and completely disregard the fact that the players enjoy playing them, we might as well abolish every single event that causes the slightest inkling of change anywhere on Azeroth - And the custom places like AC, Mimeron's Anchorage, Lawless Town, Catacombs/Evil Town, as well as allowing classes to do only what their skill sets allow them to do to the letter, and of course, removing the prestige system and every single character that is already a prestige.

This may be seen as reductio ad absurdum, but if people are asking to make CotH "more lore accurate", than the very best to make it as accurate as possible should be made, right? As otherwise, wanting Living Death Knights removed while keeping everything else that breaks lore by using the claim of "Lore accuracy" would be hypocritical.

So yes, that's the logical course of action. Even at the cost of, well, fun.

Hey, I only want to make them special profiles. I personally (and I know that I'm one of the biggest people against them) only want them to be Special Profiles as they are, indeed, no matter how you look at it, -special-. That's all there is to it, from my point of view.

That... Would probably be the best course of action. Yet what about the already living DK's?

http://www.conquestofthehorde.com/Thread...e-old-days

[flammos200]

I disagree. Why put characters through the approval process -again-, when they've been deemed approved before?

If the change is to happen, then sure. Let it happen. But it should only apply pro-actively, and not retroactively. Thus, if it is to affect the DK approval process, it should only affect DKs not yet approved.

[Grakor456]

I hear people saying "Your arguements are speculation!"

...When pretty much everything said in this thread is speculation.
Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can affirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

Except there really isn't, which is the problem right now. Is there any canonical lore out there that suggests that third-gen Death Knights are in any way alive? Because I can find you lore that says that they're dead. The opening cinematic is one, as well as one of the answers to the first "Ask CDev" lore infodump:

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

Source: http://rom.curse.com/blogs/wow-en-news/a...und-1.aspx

The answer sort of indirectly labeled all DKs as undead.

So, really, the burden here is on the people wanting living DKs. What source of lore suggests it's possible for 3rd gen DKs to be living?

[Uthaniel]

All these leave things to speculation. It all depends on how you read what he says - As you said yourself, it's indirect, one interpretation. While he puts forsaken and death knights in the same category, he never explicitly states Death Knights are this way because they're undead. They're filled with unholy energies, however, which could explain why even a living death knight is hurt by the Light.

[Grakor456]

All these leave things to speculation. It all depends on how you read what he says - As you said yourself, it's indirect, one interpretation. While he puts forsaken and death knights in the same category, he never explicitly states Death Knights are this way because they're undead. They're filled with unholy energies, however, which could explain why even a living death knight is hurt by the Light.

I don't think it does, but let's say for a moment that all of this overwhelming evidence that points to DKs being dead is still leaving enough gaps for speculation...again, where is anything actually suggesting that they're still alive?

There's a vast difference between making speculation based on things strongly implied by lore presented (DKs are all dead,) and speculation that has no supporting lore at all (some DKs are not.)

Edit: Also, to point out...the answered question is talking directly about how the Light affects undead. If DKs weren't being lumped into that category, putting them into the answer to the question seems rather silly and pointless. They wouldn't have done it.

[PurgatoryDuck]

I disagree. Why put characters through the approval process -again-, when they've been deemed approved before?

If the change is to happen, then sure. Let it happen. But it should only apply pro-actively, and not retroactively. Thus, if it is to affect the DK approval process, it should only affect DKs not yet approved.

Well, so far a lot of talk saying that some DK's are living is speculation, we can -not- have the current living DK's approve themselves. Also, I hear some are neck deep in past RP events to where it would be terrible to retcon it. But for future DK's that want to be living the special prof idea is the only reasonable thing, next to no living DK's.

[Alykia]

I am FIRMLY of the belief that living death knights should not be a playable race and fully support it's retconing and that it should be added to the list that the following currently share;

• Dragon
• High Elf
• Vampire
• Worgen/Werewolf
• Dark Iron Dwarf
• Half-insert-race-here
• Any race, tribe, or clan found in a dungeon or raid

Every single race one of the races in that list is more valid as a playable race then a 'living' death knight is. Not that any of those should be playable and I both fully understand and support the GM's reasons for not allowing them.

A 'living' death knight goes against fundamental standard warcraft lore on how death knights are created. Like forsaken and wraths. A prerequisite of even playing the 'class' or 'race' is to -be- dead. It is, fundamentally, an undead being. I am aware of no place in warcraft lore is this not the case. If someone knows otherwise, please do share.
I believe by allowing 'living' death knights, it is a brash breach of lore which is almost certainly worse than allowing vampires and werewolves because at least -those- races existed in the warcraft universe.

Bottom of line is, Blizzard has neither said "Every single Death Knight is dead" or "There are living Death Knights", and while that hasn't happened yet, nobody here can afirm 100% sure that Death Knights are living or (un)dead. As this thread certainly showed, there's still points to both sides.

There is not points because blizzard DOES state that they are all dead… by explaining how they were all created in the first place.

Blizzard doesn't need to spell out, because there were not an endless random amount of death knights, rather they were a special order under -one individual- and the lore explains how each of those orders where created, so you have only to read the lore to know if they are all dead or not

And I think that yes. They were all dead.

I believe the arguments to the contrary are far reaching and take advantage of the open wording blizzard had used for the sake of dramatizing lore rather then paying attention to the intent and spirit in which the lore was written so as to excuse a want to play an otherwise heavily lore bending character.

Arthas is the only 'acceptation' because he is not a death knight persay, but a Lich King. he was a class unto himself.

Second generation Death Knights, as a rule of thumb, were all of the living sort.

The second set were of the scourge. The scourge were all undead. Thus, the death knights were, by default, undead.

--------------

How death knights are created;

First death knights-
The first death knights were created by placing the souls of the slain warlocks of the Shadow Council into the corpses of fallen Stormwind knights, the first of whom was Teron Gorefiend. Unlike modern death knights of the Scourge, these ghoulish fiends were not battle hardened warriors; they were insidious necromancers who possessed superior intellect and tremendous magical power.

Creation of the second set of death knigts;
Years after the destruction of Draenor, the immensely powerful Lich King created a new breed of death knights: malevolent, rune-wielding warriors of the Scourge.

(Now remember, the scourge are undead walking corpses so these too were of course, dead.)

Third death knight set (Aka the playable hero class);
The death knights of Acherus were the members of the former death knight order under the direct command of the Lich King.

(Note. Members of the -former- death knight order. The former death knight order were all dead as well, thus they remain so as the knights of Acherus.)
--------------------

I think trying to consider the 'purchased another dawn for the world with your life' being a euphemism for something is a very long reach at best. I believe they were being very straight forward with saying that the cost of a war was your life. Aka you died. Especially considering that in no place in lore does it ever mention any death knight -not- being dead.


Of Retconning;

To fix issues with 'retconning' lore bendy-to-the-point-of-breaking characters, rather then retconning characters entirely without explanation and dropping role play.
Nobody wants their char to simply vanish or to just dump role-play they may have been enjoying, so for the sake of the players and server alike... how about having a massive GM run roleplay event that explains either the characters no longer being death knights, or dying. Some sort of massive war that would serve as an IC cleanup?

This would serve the dual purpose of allowing players to have their characters choose a race other then death knight if their char -has- to be alive, have their char 'die' again in the war and remain a dead death knight, and/or removing the 'living' death knight entirely while giving the player's character a nice IC wrap-up rather then it simply ceasing to exist.

That and a server wide GM event dealing with such a wide range of characters could be absolutely epic and everyone could get some great character development and enjoyment out of it.

Added note: Bleh. I wrote this all while very exhausted so sorry for the lack of further detail and proper grammar in my post.

[PvtFrog]

Creation of the second set of death knigts;
Years after the destruction of Draenor, the immensely powerful Lich King created a new breed of death knights: malevolent, rune-wielding warriors of the Scourge.

(Now remember, the scourge are undead walking corpses so these too were of course, dead.)

That's technically half true. 2nd Gen Death Knights willingly went to the Lich King so they were once living, however the mortality rate once you join the Scourge seems to shoot up so we can assume they have died a few times and were raised again into undeath.