Living Death Knights, Part 2

[Rosencrat]

Thread Locked.

If you can't reach a consensus after six pages, you ain't never gettin' their, hause.

[Kretol]

Overruled. Grakor's goal is to poll opinions which we are still interested in hearing. So long as this thread does not degenerate into a flame war or insults or the like, it will serve a purpose.

[Cressy]

I do not understand why everyone is taking this topic to heart. Serious, take a breath before you post and read it thoroughly. Ask yourself if you are freaking out on something that is actually worth freaking over.

But, back on topic. Living death knights have always tickled me. I will post something more meaningful once I get on my computer.

[Aphetoros]

This topic is giving me an embolism.

[Dragonbeard]

First off, I want to apologize to those who are under scrutiny here. I don't have anything against any of you. Hell, I don't know you. I actually just joined this community, so forgive me for being so bold.

I do not believe anyone here is trying to become the "Destroyer of Characters" or the "Master of Everyone's Roleplay." We're merely trying to set a standard that we all follow. Unfortunately, it appears that this problem arose because it was overlooked (not intentionally, I'm sure) in the process of approving the characters in question.

Unless it is vital to your character for them to be "alive," what is the issue with the retcon? If it is vital, then it may just be one of those unfortunate situations where you just bite the bullet. A retcon does not mean the end of your character.

For the record, I don't WANT anyone's character to have to change. No one wants that. We all work hard on our characters and having that hard work discounted in any way sucks. That's why the approval process takes time and careful consideration.

But I will also add, if we are going to be this strict on this specific issue and make people retcon things, then it needs to be something that is done for everyone. (No one is safe!)

[Etmosril]

I'd like to keep them. There are a lot of arguments and counterarguments I could make, but this one's the simplest for me to type.

..What can I say? I'm lazy.

Our last server retcon was to remove custom lore which would conflict with Cataclysm. Reasonable enough, right? Fixing the DK characters could be said to serve the same purpose: preparing for Cataclysm.

Here's the thing: whether your Death Knight is live or dead doesn't matter one whit in Cataclysm. Blizzard has moved on from Wrath of the Lich King content, which includes Death Knights. They're not getting any further attention from lore.

With that in mind, perhaps this divergence from lore is a bit more tolerable.


Why am I so attached to the idea of living Death Knights? Because they have legitimate history on the server. We were playing them long before the announcement was made. Many of their personal storylines have involved their status of undeath. That's going to take a lot to 'fix', and a GM-operated event won't be sufficient to explain why some of those people showed up.

And now on a (slightly) related tangent, my 'living' DK character has now been profiled for a full year. Bad time for an anniversary.

[Aphetoros]

The argument now is that they don't exist in lore. Which I agree with. They don't. But we're a private server. If people want it? Then -let them-. We reserve the right to change things, in fact isn't that one of the reasons we left retail to begin with? The constant butchery of the lore we love? The story? On CotH we can alter the lore to play how we want, what we want, and do what we want.

And yet all we're concerned with is whether or not something is possible in the lore. I say if it doesn't do any harm, and as much as I dislike some of the living death knights I've seen on this server, and if people are having fun playing them, than I don't think we should tear it away from them like a goblin shredder wtfpwning a night elven forest. A cloud is a cloud, even if you say it looks like a bunny rabbit, and at the end of the day a game is a game, even if you try to lore like an ant frozen in amber.

...basically, I mean that we're just here to have fun, so let's.

[Ural]

I think the lore in letter and in spirit clearly define all third generation Death Knights as dead. I really enjoyed that defining moment in my DK's life...

...As the Death Knight dragged her, she stared up into the sky. She felt at peace knowing she has done all she could to get revenge, and would be able to rest in peace with her family. She bleed out before she could realize where he was taking her...

For folks with physical relationships I offer this highly educational piece.

What if I had to make the decision to implement this right now? Well I would have the current "breathers" be infected with an improved plague-type of disease and/or have them "decay" into undeath.

I admit they may not be the best ideas. I would rather do something than either nothing or outright delete them.

[CharAznable]

I think my main issue with all this is that a 'living' Death Knight, especially third generation, flies in the face of everything a Death Knight is within the game. At least in regards to third generation that are playable within the game.

They're meant to be easily equipped undead shock troops, as discussed earlier.

Sure, this is an RP server, and sure, there are certain things within lore to be changed, but that should be kept to small things that are relatively inconsequential.

This isn't that. Changing the lore then begs more questions, and would require MASSIVE re-writes in regards to Lore and to how Death Knights in general work.

Its easier, albeit a bit sad I know, to make a minority of players re-tool their characters to fit a general understanding that a majority of players know.

Not to mention, say this is allowed. What next? A Draenei Demon Hunter? There has to be a line drawn on what is acceptable and what is not, or something absurd like Haagen-Dazs the Draenei cousin of Velen who became a Demon Hunter to avenge his fallen brethren, the Blood Elves. This is an RP server that is supposed to be for intelligent and interesting story telling within the -Warcraft- universe, I'm sure that's more the reason most people left retail.

[flammos200]

I think the lore in letter and in spirit clearly define all third generation Death Knights as dead. I really enjoyed that defining moment in my DK's life...

...As the Death Knight dragged her, she stared up into the sky. She felt at peace knowing she has done all she could to get revenge, and would be able to rest in peace with her family. She bleed out before she could realize where he was taking her...

For folks with physical relationships I offer this highly educational piece.

What if I had to make the decision to implement this right now? Well I would have the current "breathers" be infected with an improved plague-type of disease and/or have them "decay" into undeath.

I admit they may not be the best ideas. I would rather do something than either nothing or outright delete them.

All Death Knights are immune to diseases. They're treated as Undead for the purpose of spells, diseases, poisons and the like. So, Light, Blight and Black Lotus all react to them like they would to a Forsaken. I.E. Not at all.
Unless we count the Forsaken New Plague which affects both living and undead by killing them outright in moments.

I'd like to keep them. There are a lot of arguments and counterarguments I could make, but this one's the simplest for me to type.

..What can I say? I'm lazy.

Our last server retcon was to remove custom lore which would conflict with Cataclysm. Reasonable enough, right? Fixing the DK characters could be said to serve the same purpose: preparing for Cataclysm.

Here's the thing: whether your Death Knight is live or dead doesn't matter one whit in Cataclysm. Blizzard has moved on from Wrath of the Lich King content, which includes Death Knights. They're not getting any further attention from lore.

With that in mind, perhaps this divergence from lore is a bit more tolerable.


Why am I so attached to the idea of living Death Knights? Because they have legitimate history on the server. We were playing them long before the announcement was made. Many of their personal storylines have involved their status of undeath. That's going to take a lot to 'fix', and a GM-operated event won't be sufficient to explain why some of those people showed up.

And now on a (slightly) related tangent, my 'living' DK character has now been profiled for a full year. Bad time for an anniversary.

This. For the love of the Light, is Cata doesn't touch on DKs anymore. Their Lore is given free reign. And like I said, the difference is meager at best. Genocide does not make any sense.

I've got two Undying DKs and one Undead one. All three're fun because they're diverse. All three are twisted to the point of seeing their own rears without a mirror. All three kill to exist. All are played as -Death Knights- and not 'Normal people with DK powers'.

S'yeah. I would honestly rather people -stop generalizing- as to what they dislike, and just point fingers, or complain to a GM when you see a person break Lore.

Seriously. See a DK that woos women left and right at the local tavern? Report him. See a DK that needs to drink juice every morning or they perish of thirst? Report him. See a DK that starves to death? Report him.

Anyhow, point is, it's not the kind of DK that matters. I've seen Undying(Mind, I don't use the term living) ones played -far- better than Undead ones. It's how you play your Death Knight - true to Lore and atmosphere which the class inspires - that matters.

[Dragonbeard]

What in the world is an "Undying" Death Knight, and what sets them apart from "Living" Death Knights?

Edit: Just trying to understand exactly what "Undying" constitutes. Sorry, as this may have this initially come off as condescending and that is definitely not my intention.

[Binkleheimer]

I think the lore in letter and in spirit clearly define all third generation Death Knights as dead. I really enjoyed that defining moment in my DK's life...

...As the Death Knight dragged her, she stared up into the sky. She felt at peace knowing she has done all she could to get revenge, and would be able to rest in peace with her family. She bleed out before she could realize where he was taking her...

For folks with physical relationships I offer this highly educational piece.

What if I had to make the decision to implement this right now? Well I would have the current "breathers" be infected with an improved plague-type of disease and/or have them "decay" into undeath.

I admit they may not be the best ideas. I would rather do something than either nothing or outright delete them.

All Death Knights are immune to diseases. They're treated as Undead for the purpose of spells, diseases, poisons and the like. So, Light, Blight and Black Lotus all react to them like they would to a Forsaken. I.E. Not at all.
Unless we count the Forsaken New Plague which affects both living and undead by killing them outright in moments.

I'd like to keep them. There are a lot of arguments and counterarguments I could make, but this one's the simplest for me to type.

..What can I say? I'm lazy.

Our last server retcon was to remove custom lore which would conflict with Cataclysm. Reasonable enough, right? Fixing the DK characters could be said to serve the same purpose: preparing for Cataclysm.

Here's the thing: whether your Death Knight is live or dead doesn't matter one whit in Cataclysm. Blizzard has moved on from Wrath of the Lich King content, which includes Death Knights. They're not getting any further attention from lore.

With that in mind, perhaps this divergence from lore is a bit more tolerable.


Why am I so attached to the idea of living Death Knights? Because they have legitimate history on the server. We were playing them long before the announcement was made. Many of their personal storylines have involved their status of undeath. That's going to take a lot to 'fix', and a GM-operated event won't be sufficient to explain why some of those people showed up.

And now on a (slightly) related tangent, my 'living' DK character has now been profiled for a full year. Bad time for an anniversary.

This. For the love of the Light, is Cata doesn't touch on DKs anymore. Their Lore is given free reign. And like I said, the difference is meager at best. Genocide does not make any sense.

I've got two Undying DKs and one Undead one. All three're fun because they're diverse. All three are twisted to the point of seeing their own rears without a mirror. All three kill to exist. All are played as -Death Knights- and not 'Normal people with DK powers'.

S'yeah. I would honestly rather people -stop generalizing- as to what they dislike, and just point fingers, or complain to a GM when you see a person break Lore.

Seriously. See a DK that woos women left and right at the local tavern? Report him. See a DK that needs to drink juice every morning or they perish of thirst? Report him. See a DK that starves to death? Report him.

Anyhow, point is, it's not the kind of DK that matters. I've seen Undying(Mind, I don't use the term living) ones played -far- better than Undead ones. It's how you play your Death Knight - true to Lore and atmosphere which the class inspires - that matters.

Dunno if it was stated, but this is all really a reaction to the lesbian DK thing people so revile.

To be honest? Only saw it once in BB. And that's it, just BB.

This whole thing started because of that. Before hand? People just complained about the number of them.

As a result of the few lesDKs in BB, people started to complain and people heard the complaints and assumed it was something constantly affecting BB. Well, complaints, like rumors, snowball. First it was a thread with the DK guild that wanted to hunt rogue DKs down that turned into a large debate over the intentions of the players playing said lesDKs, which summarily died down. Then a thread pops up about how they should be special profiles, it dies down for a bit. And then Blizzard retcons the RPG books and this kinda happens.

Honestly? Most of this is from people who tend to throw hissy-fits at the slightest lore inaccuracy. However, they're also people with Prestige classes and ones that only show up in the now non-canon Lore books.
Should we drop them then? Should they be retconned? Of course, they'll say no and go on about how it's not fair or that some of them show up in WoW.

You can go on and on about how it doesn't fit in WoW lore. You can post all the evidence about it that you want. Just remember, the same applies to a lot of prestige classes. It also applies a lot to such things as Catacombs and whatever city will replace it now. Hell, it even applies to the hunting of rogue death knights, which I was told works because the server seems to accept it as so. If you're going to be so anal about the Lore like this, then you might as well stop playing. It's a private server. They said they wanted it to be as close to Blizzard's lore as they can.

You know, the same lore that has the massive retcons like the draenei and characters like Ronin.

Let it be.

[Esthrunil]

... I finally agree with someone. Binkleheimer said it all.

[Hexproof]

==Edit: Missed the above posts while typing up my monster below. I agree with Binkleheimer. ==

What in the world is an "Undying" Death Knight, and what sets them apart from "Living" Death Knights?

Edit: Just trying to understand exactly what "Undying" constitutes. Sorry, as this may have this initially come off as condescending and that is definitely not my intention.

It's a term derived earlier in the thread.

It's one of the proposed solutions in which no Death Knight is truly "alive" in the traditional sense, but not all of them were killed and thus not all are "undead".

The difference is mainly one of the body still being "alive" and not decaying, which, depending on who's saying it, could either make the Death Knight stronger or weaker, more or less vulnerable, etc.

Personally, I advocate that sort of definition, because the issue is so small and pointless that I think it's being massively blown out of proportion on the basis that a few people "misplayed" "living" Death Knights and turned some people against them.

A lot of the arguments I've seen against them, and the way they are worded, are not "Death Knights are more likely X", but rather (and I stress that I'm not pointing any fingers here), "I do not like "living" Death Knight characters because X Y Z."

At the end of the day, after Cataclysm they're completely dropped by the Lore except that a few of them seem to become "free agents" on the side of whoever they happen to have pledged themselves to. There is no real importance on this issue, and unless Blizzard intends to release a second Undead-Centric expansion anytime soon, it will never be an important piece of lore.

I think rather than a blanket ban/retcon/killing for no good reason, there does need to be something done. Not to current "living"/undying/whatever DKs, but to future ones.

The standards need to be tightened, but it's honestly not a large enough issue to warrant a special profile. It's not as if the DK is gaining superpowers or the sudden ability to shoot fire from their armpits because they're not Forsaken-style Undead. It's not as if they've got some sort of "special rank" or anything. They just happen to be (mostly) biologically alive, and there is little likelihood that any "living" DK character will be played long enough for that to be an advantage over their "rotting" peers, if Death Knights even rot at all.

A Death Knight's power comes from their runeblade, and their mind was influenced (powerfully) by the Lich King during their creation and during their entire tenure as a Death Knight of the Scourge. Alive or dead, they all have equal footing here and no, I admit there is not much to side for "living" Death Knights, but seriously, so what?

The reason CotH exists is to provide good, fun roleplaying, and if that means bending a very, very vaguely implied (and never clarified) piece of lore, then is that really going to kill people?

That's my opinion on this matter, in bulk, after looking over all the other opinions. "Undying" Death Knights are the best way to go here, and they're not special. They're just an alternative to "undead".

[Dragonbeard]

I think rather than a blanket ban/retcon/killing for no good reason, there does need to be something done. Not to current "living"/undying/whatever DKs, but to future ones.

If choose we allow Undying Death Knights now, how is it at all fair to deny them to players who may also want to play them in the same manner as you?

To be honest, I really don't care about the Death Knight thing, I just found the whole "living" concept to be a bit contradicting. I'm just concerned at this point that if we allow you to keep your profile, it should not be denied to those who would want to do the same in the future.

If we are going to let it be, then we should just drop this altogether and deal with the issues that spawned this thread as they arise.