The Problem of Prestiges

[Kaghuros]

Let me tell you how I feel about prestiges. This comes both as someone who participated in this system in its pre-alpha state as well as one of the GMs who worked and wrangled to get a prestige system in place over a year ago before my hiatus from the server.

1. First and foremost, other people do not RP the same way you do and the server always needs to accommodate that.

Please understand that there are other people who like to play other ways than you. I personally enjoy simple RP, but even as I play many down-to-earth comon folk I also love to have grand adventure and to push the boundaries of official lore by playing odd characters with styles and attitudes I've never tried before. What if people want to play a Mage who mixes magic and technology? Are they SOL if prestiges are removed? That has the opportunity to make a great, interesting, fun character for someone, and RP is about fun for each person who does it. Does the fact that some variant/prestige classes offer new or more specialized ways to RP actually inhibit your fun? If so, then they definitely deserve to be looked at because they probably cause problems for other people too. If not, then why is it a big deal? You may be the admin, but your "job" is to both make the server fun for you as well as fun for others. Accommodate players' opinions whenever possible, because with the server having as big a community as it does, the players have become who the server is for.

2. Decisions about character should be more freeform, with less of a focus on combat/roll DPS.

I personally believe that people should be able to do a lot more on their own story-wise, with the caveat that there be GM approval for anything out of the ordinary. Like I said before, variant classes and alternative way to do normal things (like runic magic and art-as-spell casting for Inscription Mages) are something I love. Not every character that's strange is fun, and not every one is acceptable, but having a system that allows people to make their own advanced classes -enables fun- for people who like to try something different while at the same time enabling the GMs to watch it for trouble.

3. Some people like their characters to achieve something, so a system that encourages achievement while still offering oversight is good for the server.

Maybe it's becoming head chef of a restaurant in Stormwind, maybe it's a gold medal at the Azerothian Special Olympics. People like their character's stories to have meaningful advancements, and sometimes that could mean specializing or changing their focus or position in society. That kind of advancement should be encouraged and most importantly monitored. Because if someone wants to be OP they will be without asking, but if they have to go through hoops to do something then in theory only those dedicated to following a path IC'ly will do so.




So, the tl;dr is the numbered sentences, but here's a summary:

The current system may be flawed, I haven't yet done it so I can't comment on that, but some system for character advancement helps people have fun. Those people might not be you, but they really do still matter. If you must remove this system, please replace it, because this is the closest the server has ever had to a complete process for allowing people to make change in the Warcraft world, and rocking the boat is sometimes what people need to spin wild and wonderful stories.

[/post]

[Cressy]

Just to restate what Grakor said...This isn't being taken down today. But during the next restart, it will be wiped. And, to the people saying your characters are unplayable..Don't base your characters so much on the title. So. Yeah.

[Clovis]

So, the tl;dr is the numbered sentences, but here's a summary:

The current system may be flawed, I haven't yet done it so I can't comment on that, but some system for character advancement helps people have fun. Those people might not be you, but they really do still matter. If you must remove this system, please replace it, because this is the closest the server has ever had to a complete process for allowing people to make change in the Warcraft world, and rocking the boat is sometimes what people need to spin wild and wonderful stories.

Actually. Now that I think about it: Why can't we just neuter the system rather than kill it? Just remove the combat bonuses altogether and provide social/mental/story bonuses in lieu of it.

[Roxas65]

Well, like Cressy said, it's your server and you can do whatever you want. But to be honest, I won't be in the least surprised if this is the final straw for some people who just won't come back and you're -guaranteed- to get a LOT of hate for this. As long as you can think you can take it, go nuts.

Personally, I never understood why prestiges had roll bonuses. That was probably the biggest mistake if you ask me. The characters I started prestiges on only had the purpose of forwarding RP or specialize a character. Such as my draenei dead shot. Sure, I wouldn't complain if she'd get a roll bonus on long range, but I damn well intended for her to get her ass kicked if it ever got close and personal. It's all about balance. but if you don't want people to abuse the potential power of a prestige then just remove all the roll bonuses. Why would people be inclined to get a prestige just for the heck of it if it doesn't give them -anything- except actual RP progress?

However, that was just regarding one of your points, so I doubt that mean much. I just wanted it to be said.

[Reigen]

My only question is: Those of us who have gotten approved for a prestige and are posting for it currently, should we bother to continue at this point? I know it may not be taken down today, tomorrow, or even three months from now, but that would be three months we will most likely have to retcon out of our characters existence.

[Grakor456]

My only question is: Those of us who have gotten approved for a prestige and are posting for it currently, should we bother to continue at this point? I know it may not be taken down today, tomorrow, or even three months from now, but that would be three months we will most likely have to retcon out of our characters existence.

This would ultimately depend on why you're doing the prestige thread, and whether you'd be terribly upset if you'd have to get rid of some of the things you gained from it.

Even if we went the path of the zealot and burned all prestiges to the ground and left nothing remaining, many characters wouldn't need full retcons, just partial ones. Some characters will suffer this situation worse than others, of course, depending on the exact prestige and whether you feel that prestige defines the character or simply enhances it. I am not telling people to retcon characters completely out of existence, though in some cases that may be the path you choose to take if you can't decide on a way to retcon the character down.

That said, there are still possibilities being discussed. I know an idea being bounced around on the GM boards was a system that would allow people to play variations of existing classes, essentially a more customizable, but neutered in that it won't alter character power, system. If we decide to go this route, then prestiges may be transferable (depending. Some may still need a retcon, as I do not feel comfortable with people playing base classes that are not in fact base classes, but most characters, barring things like Fel-Sworn, should be able to fit in one way or another.)

Edit:

Well, like Cressy said, it's your server and you can do whatever you want. But to be honest, I won't be in the least surprised if this is the final straw for some people who just won't come back and you're -guaranteed- to get a LOT of hate for this. As long as you can think you can take it, go nuts.

I'm the tank of the GM team. I take the flames so other folks don't have to. Kret's my healer. The rest go DPS and do the actual work.

[flammos200]

So long as we get to keep our characters, I have no outstanding qualms with Prestiges receding.

We can just say that they did <something else> during the time in which they trained, and that their use of Prestige abilities, never happened, instead being something that their Class did.

Example: Sylvandre killing Shiv with Slicing Torrent, can always become a Shattering/Heroic Throw, as that's a Warrior skill.

Etc.

'Least that's how I intend on workin' things out, should prestiges be removed.

[Roxas65]

That said, there are still possibilities being discussed. I know an idea being bounced around on the GM boards was a system that would allow people to play variations of existing classes, essentially a more customizable, but neutered in that it won't alter character power, system. If we decide to go this route, then prestiges may be transferable (depending. Some may still need a retcon, as I do not feel comfortable with people playing base classes that are not in fact base classes, but most characters, barring things like Fel-Sworn, should be able to fit in one way or another.)

I approve of this. At the very least it beats the hell out of hours upon hours upon hours of work resulting in "DELETE ****ING EVERYTHING!" Depending on how you do it, it might even beat the hell out of the actual prestige system. Hell, if you gave the prestige system this many chances, you ought to at least give this idea -one- chance.

[FlyingSquirrel]

That said, there are still possibilities being discussed. I know an idea being bounced around on the GM boards was a system that would allow people to play variations of existing classes, essentially a more customizable, but neutered in that it won't alter character power, system. If we decide to go this route, then prestiges may be transferable (depending. Some may still need a retcon, as I do not feel comfortable with people playing base classes that are not in fact base classes, but most characters, barring things like Fel-Sworn, should be able to fit in one way or another.)

Same as Roxas. Really, the only thing that remotely disappointed me about this was that there would always be that chunk of culture missing in cultures, like having Xigo's Bloodmage, or ETC, that wouldn't be allowed to be played. So, if we can play those things, then I'm happy.

[Binkleheimer]

Oh well. Del goes from a very angry spell breaker with a nice shield to a very angry protadin with a nice shield.
Nothing of value was lost.

[Uthaniel]

This would ultimately depend on why you're doing the prestige thread, and whether you'd be terribly upset if you'd have to get rid of some of the things you gained from it.

That brings us to my point. I honestly don't care about whether or not Juna gets roll bonuses (Specially because Hunt events are trusted and she'll mostly be hosting/participating in those, anyway.), however, I want to know whether, whenever the system goes down, she is allowed to keep her title.

Being a far seer carries a big chunk of what I have in mind for Juna, and while I'm fairly sure I'd be able to circumvent the issue, I'd frankly rather not, and go with my original plan.

So, that's the thing. The biggest complaint here is that some people just want the power that comes with the prestige, but some don't. I'm asking in behalf of both myself and those that could care less about a plus fifteen to our rolls. Can we keep the title, training and development that came with the prestiges, or will those be discarded with the system when/if it happens?

[Xigo]

Hopefully we will be able to make another system... which will be incredibly similar to the prestige system save for a name change and being more open... and a good deal of things will still be doable.

From the looks of it, Arianna will still be able to be a Blood Mage, as an example. That is, if the system comes out.

[Grakor456]

That brings us to my point. I honestly don't care about whether or not Juna gets roll bonuses (Specially because Hunt events are trusted and she'll mostly be hosting/participating in those, anyway.), however, I want to know whether, whenever the system goes down, she is allowed to keep her title.

Being a far seer carries a big chunk of what I have in mind for Juna, and while I'm fairly sure I'd be able to circumvent the issue, I'd frankly rather not, and go with my original plan.

So, that's the thing. The biggest complaint here is that some people just want the power that comes with the prestige, but some don't. I'm asking in behalf of both myself and those that could care less about a plus fifteen to our rolls. Can we keep the title, training and development that came with the prestiges, or will those be discarded with the system when/if it happens?

A lot of this will determine on if we replace the prestige system with something else or not, and the actual title in question. The former is still up in the air: we may replace it, or we may annihilate it. If we replace it, some titles may be available as "variants", and thus still monitored in some manner.

Some titles may also be open for general use. For example, if the d20 abilities are not brought into play, does anyone really care if a shaman calls himself a Spiritwalker?

Edit: To note, some titles may have to go in general. "Archmage", "Archdruid", "High Divinist", etc. all imply a greater level of power.

[Uthaniel]

Well, in my childish ignorance, what I've gathered from this post is that while the prestige system acts as the catalyst, the utmost fault is of the players that abused it.

Henceforth, while removing the system altogether is a valid response to the issue, I don't see why punish, unfairly so, the ones that were actually rightfully trusted with the power that the prestiges bring; Though I'm biased as I have personal interest in keeping Juna's title, my opinion would be the same if the system was canceled tomorrow and her training interrupted (Try me! Well, don't, but if you -do-, you'll see. Still don't, though. Please?), my opinion would be the same.

Frankly, I'd rather remove the prestige status of those that have misused their titles before anything else (Since it's even in the system rules that that's possible, no?) but I'm also gathering that the misuse is coming from the crushing majority; I instead just hope that the staff's efforts to not unfairly punish or force people to lose their work, as it was done with the case of the living death knights before, persists. There are amazingly developed characters whose prestiges consisted major character development to them, like Flammos' Sylvandre, even if she herself voiced indifference to losing her status (Which, as a side note, had a hilarious knack for losing sparring matches even as a warden. Go figure.) or even Hawk's Mokaku, and even before my own, it'd honestly suck to see those gone.

EDIT: This post was written before Grakor replied just above, and therefore I got ninja'd. Bear that in mind during your read.

[Jonoth]

Some prestige issues will arise not just from power changes, but physical ones as well. The fel-based ones usually result in a change of appearance to a more demonic form, which even if it didn't come with additional powers it largely affects how other characters react to them upon first glance. So an interesting point that will come up will be if those physical changes are allowed to persist through a restart, if not the power levels.

Also, currently writing a prestige myself, it is a lot of work, and I had long-term RP plans revolved around the changes to the character. With this now coming to light, it would feel like a huge waste for me to put forth so much writing effort into those changes just for them to disappear at any time. So it seems to make more sense to suspend writing since I run the risk of it just not mattering. I still plan to RP the character regardless, but with the time taken out to develop the characters a certain way, I'd rather know now that all the hours of research and writing being put into it will not be in vain.