The Problem of Prestiges

[HelveteSong]

I wasn't sure of what to make of this, seeing as I like the idea of the prestige system, yet I know that it doesn't work as well as we wish it would. I've been on the server for three years (sure, I may not have logged in from time to time, but I do my best to keep up on the forums), and I have seen things come and go like it was nobody's business.

I've watched people become GMs, quit, return. I've been through at least two server restarts, if not more. I've made friends and lost them, watch people practically revolutionize the server with their ideas only to ragequit over something stupid. I admit, I may not have been active in these last couple of months, so I don't know the full story. But I suppose an old fogey like me can throw in their two cents without being kicked around like a Blood Elf in an orc party.

Prestige systems are wonderful ideas. They allow a character who has worked hard at their class to perhaps better themselves in their respective field; Such as a mage studies to become an Archmage or an orc warrior learns the art of the Blademaster. The journey that these characters take in order to become better, faster, stronger, whatever! That is what the prestige system is meant to be about. As it has been stated in the thread already, "It's not the destination, it's the journey." And that what the idea is about. It's not about who can get more skills, better attack rolls, some stupid powerplay bonus.

Which is what leads into this second paragraph: People generally see the prestige as a way to get a more powerful character. Which is true, yes, but not the point. The point is to have a character evolve through their interactions and become better (or worse) people.

For a shitey example, my human warrior Tracy is hardly a warrior. She's an engineer, and she works hard to make her contraptions the best that they could be. Tracy wasn't a harsh person; she treated everyone fairly and thought everyone had the right to walk the road of life at their own pace, whether they be human or otherwise.

Unfortunately, she was abducted by pirates, forced into slavery, and had to do things that would have never crossed her mind in order to gain her freedom. She had a mental breakdown, became a mess, and nearly offed herself in frustration. After recovering for some time in Mimiron, tinkering away, she slowly returned to a functioning member of society. Yet her personality shifted entirely, going from a caring individual who wanted her inventions to be used for good to a borderline psychotic woman who views people as test subjects for her experiments. She even helped enslave innocent people to fund her engineering projects, despite knowing the very hell the people were likely to go through because she had been through it herself.

The thing here is that Tracy went through all this through live interaction with other players, no prestige title, no power bonuses, nothing. Her life has been changed permanently, and her engineering has become more about weaponry and war instead of useful inventions to better lives around Azeroth. So what is the whole point of this rambling story?

The Prestige Title system hasn't worked since it was first implimented back in vanilla/early BC. It will always have flaws, and some people will always try to use them to gain a more powerful character. I like the idea of 'variant' classes, but it doesn't seem quite fair, either. Getting rid of the 'stat bonuses' and 'awesome super duper skills' (that aren't the point of the prestige ((like, for example, the runes on a runemaster because that's the point of them: They use runes.))) would definitely be better because if prestiges don't have all the 'super awesome fantabulous powers' they apparantly acquire, then not as many people will immediately dive into it.


tl;dr: Prestige system needs to be more focused on character development and less on overpowered bullsh*t skills that aren't really used outside of combat RP anyways.

[Mirivian]

Honestly rather sad to see this go as I like the idea of it and always have due to my own personal bias of having helped hammer the system together the first time. I just came from a server where everyone was so incredibly normal/realistic/boring that I eventually got incredibly tired of rping there. However I have seen a lot of the sour-grapes that happens when someone has a character that is powerful and other people don't. And yes, sorry it -is- sour grapes for the most part. Someone else has a character more intense than theirs, end of. If people just accepted that, it might be all right, but people rarely do, and I think that's where a lot of the problem comes in. In the end, the system falls down.

I have seen a lot of rp which quite honestly makes me want to gnash my teeth and rant at the screen...and believe me I do, but I won't post it here. No point; but people -do- this rp and as a rper I'm often told "Well it's their rp and you have no right to tell them otherwise". So I just quietly go to a corner and hunt and skin and wait for some rp that I actually want to participate in. IMO - and this was said before - prestige is just another form of rp; it's your taste, or it isn't. It may be abused, it may make you gnash your teeth...but it's a playstyle just like any other. You've a choice to acknowledge it or to avoid it.

What if the prestige characters were instead removed from general play and were instead characters run by GMs for storyline? Everyone I'm sure eyerolls about Medivh or a Dragonsworn showing up if it's a player, but they tend to give the proper reactions (and possibly a bit too bow-and-scrape) when it's a GM. Suddenly it's perfectly cool and people have no trouble with it - and if this guided the storyline along a bit with said character then perhaps it wouldn't be too big a problem. Perhaps if the prestige classes were awarded to rpers to be used to drive story and closely monitored to make sure that's what they were doing, not just trawling taverns picking up the sex/race-of-the-month as an Ambassador or something (yeah I remember those days too).

Unfortunately human nature makes doing this sort of thing very difficult. Someone is always going to get cheesed off, someone is always going to complain; there are no easy answers for it and there never have been as far as dealing with prestige goes. Guess it's just one of those things but I won't cheer when it leaves. If it really IS just a matter of "rp anyway, it doesn't matter" as some people are saying then it wouldn't be a problem in the first place; to each their own should apply everywhere.

However, as I have said in the past as well to the Powers that Be - your server, your rules, if you don't like it, change it.

Edited to attempt to achieve coherency even though I lack tea. Gah...tea.

[ThePharaoh]

Honestly surprised. I like prestige classes, I'm not sure why they're being taken out. If you want a server straight to the Blizzlore, then why not? In cannon Blizzlore I'm sure some Marianna Bisens, Fala'thoreis, Astus, Thragashs, Aroes' and other characters exist, why? Probability. It seems that we as a player base are being insulted as wanting prestiges just for the roll bonuses and shinies. But sitting in a hour and a half roll battle to get a + 10 roll bonus on a 2 roll isn't what we typed a half a book to achieve. It isn't like we're asking to be astronauts, or emperors or gods. We're asking to be classes that exist in the lore of the world. These changes to me have only seemed limited. Yes, we can have fun RP with just our base classes but not everyone wants to live everyday life. This is World of Warcraft, a fantasy game where almost every element from elves, to dragons exist. Why must we be forced to stay away from the most promising elements of the genre?

It seems like you want us to be so insignificant, that you want us to partake in insignificant RP

Slightly off topic, but correlates with the same theme. The dislike for Custom content. It is made so it can be changed. We would love to join an orc armada, or something other, but we can't change anything. We'll never win, we will be stuck in stagnant fighting, like the elves in the Dead scar. No Development. Eventually either side has to take over. And since we aren't lore chars we'll never win. But if we create a villian or an enemy, it can be killed or can kill us. Change, progression.

I also wonder, can we roll the classes but just not have roll bonuses? It seems like that is what most of your argument is about. Lets just take them away. All characters should be RP'd at their level, and we should be able to RP our character at the strength of a level 1 to level 80 - 85 since that's the mechanics or lore that the base classes have. If a troll witch doctor is a shaman, then Can I just roll a troll shaman and RP a witch doctor? Do the GM's have to acknowledge this? Can I level a mage and just be an arch mage since, I have arch mage like spells? Portal all over world, plus to another world. With plenty of mana to spare. Hell I can be so good at tailoring I can make a flying carpet. I understand and agree, our chars are pretty OP or "Prestige"-y from the beginning but if thats the case why take away the classes. Just make them open like others, yeah they'll be more represented but like always it dies down. Just as many people want to RP an archmage as people want to RP student magi. People want demon hunters as much as demons, as much as pilots, techno mages, warriors, farmers, it's because people have different tastes for RP. What character they enjoy to role play, whether it's hero, anti-hero, villian, maiden, funny guy, or sidekick.




Also roll bonuses just don't come with the class, the people in the fighting party have to agree. If Mokaku came into a fight and said I'm a prestige I get + 40. I'd say no, that's ridiculous and the fight wouldn't happen. I use Hawk as an example because every fight I've been in with him, Tzekel or Mokaku he always politely states, hey this is my prestige, what roll bonus can I have? He never states what he has, and everyone acknowledges. Okay yeah that troll is going to logically have an advantage. Lets give him a plus 10. Everyone agrees on their own choice and moves on. This situation happens even without prestige rolls anyway. Custom items and things like that. Also even though I prefer roll fighting...

This is unfair to people who trust fight

Because roll bonuses don't apply to them, though I'm sure they'll emote their character a little stronger but that's RP.

This just seems limiting. I understand the problems with prestiges, because I will admit some motivation I had behind wanting one prestige character was because I didn't have the opportunity last time. But when Prestige chars were open the first time and I didn't think they would disappear I wasn't interested to get one. It didn't concern me, I've written more in base class storyline threads than some have in prestige threads. Whether or not my characters are liked I've developed and enjoyed plenty of RP within the world. So I understand that they aren't needed to develop a character. But they can be used to link other chars to things they aren't "allowed" to touch. Dragons. We can't really RP with them and understandably so, but if someone has a dragonsworn...I can at least see one. Interact with one. we can't technically work for the Burning Legion, but if we work with a felsworn we kinda can lol.

But some of us are more mature than we're given credit for. I think if prestiges go, conquest RP should open. Or we should just be able to roll pretty formidable characters. Why? Power hungry RP is wrong it isn't about Fighting or - right I understand that but this is warcraft. Combat is a pretty important factor on the game. As a matter of fact, every "class" pertains to battle, period. Just because people like to lulz in taverns, or start romances doesn't mean others should be looked down upon for wanting to be able to defeat other characters. It is ultimately ( along with developing the character in -any- direction the RPer sees fit within the realms of lore )

Really hoping you reconsider or maybe edit some policies.

I hope our opinions are considered. I realize we are expendable, as many more would love to RP here and take our places so we honestly have no say. But we do this because we love RP most of us are the same in that regard. You tell anyone you know to write 16 600 + word essays for anything and they'll most likely tell you no. To roll a class for a fictitious character within the realm of the lore we will comply with whatever rules you have because it is ya'll server but It would be a shame to see it go just because you don't like it. Even if you have to be picky with who you let have them.

If all else fails at least bring back necromancers, I'd never want to play one because I'd much rather play a Death Knight over a Necromancer, but its such a standard class. It's interesting it's even a prestige. or everyone gets One prestige so if you QQ about getting beat up then use your prestige if its that serious. That would also limit the number of potentially "power" chars as they would wan to chose wisely, preferably on their main who they take seriously.

[Wuvvums]

I know the change may be significant for a few characters but I would personally see this as an opportunity to revamp old characters and give them a new twist. This will probably entirely change the felsworn but does that make them incapable of what they were before? Of trying to further the legion and evil rp? I think you could still apply the same personality and "feel" for the character if you did it in the right way.

I've heard people say their character would never work ever without the prestige system but I've seen their characters before and after. Taking away the prestige system wouldn't make the characters impossible, it'd just make what you want specifically to be impossible.

I'd finally like to point out one thing: in some circumstances prestiges felt limiting in some regards.

Did you really need to go through a bunch of training to be able to pilot a giant robot(Steamwarrior)? To be able to be an expert in the ring(Myrmidon)? What about a powerhouse(bonecrusher)? Or a shaman that feels like their mind is more with the spirits than with reality(Spiritwalker)? Or even a feral druid(Savagekin)?

The fact that we decided to attach these abilities to prestiges and made it a system made it so you had to go through months of training just to develop a character concept that could probably just be applied from the get-go. And then, when some people get this, they feel like they are more powerful than the average character. I think I remember once Cressy mentioned that some prestiges wouldn't let her win a fight when Jean is all about fighting. I know I play a few bare-knuckle fist-fighters myself. Do I have to go through a prestige system just to say my character is proficient at this?


Or could we just say that's part of the character? That this one character is a pilot. That this one character is really strong. That this one character is the type that likes to fight in the ring? That this one character really likes undead stuff and using undead powers?

What I'm trying to get at is that you can have a lot of variation without the prestige system if you ask me. Between the base 8 classes, the many professions, and the power of imagination I think you can have quite a bit. This is why the server doesn't need the prestige system. Once you have the prestige system everything starts being about power, or being special and unique. With the exception of a small few it really is about roll bonuses and being awesome. And some of these prestiges would only pop up when it was an opportunity to show off the roll bonuses and the power, like in Grakor's example, the myrmidons. What was the point in even running a tournament event when someone could go in on a myrmidon and just wipe the floor with everyone regardless of what the characters did? Why do we have to assume that all characters are on an equal field -except- the prestiges?

I will admit prestiges are cool and feel cool and they are fun to play with but you can find the same fulfillment trying to apply creativity and character progression while working inside the boundaries. We can have progression without this system, it's just our attitudes and ideals that are restricting the growth and nothing else.

[Mirivian]

Honestly I hear a lot of "creativity and "character progression" said but the fact of the matter is we are not just forum rping...we are playing an MMO, which is a game that comes down, first and last, to stats. I have seen people say time and time again that anyone below level 20 shouldn't be playing anything badass, and this is considered acceptable. Why? Because we are using a game frame which first and last comes down to numbers and ability, and I'm actually fine with that. I am playing a low level hunter who is nothing special. If he came up against a prestige character I would fully expect for him to get his butt handed to him on a plate. And then I expect as he grows and experiences a bit more battle prowess I'd expect him to progress himself to the point where he might even be harder to take down - and that is also considered character progression.

If we wanted to just do character rp alone, then we could use any platform other than an MMO - rather than neuter everything a MMO is (and I've seen people try, it's cringeworthy), it's worth remembering that MMOs just sort of have that sort of feel to them...and again, it isn't a bad thing either. If you want to sit and tavern rp everything, then fine, go ahead. But if I want to play a game by the numbers, and work toward improving those numbers by fighting things ingame and even going so far as to use the dungeons and quests to work my story around to something bigger? There shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately however...there always seems to be.

Anyway..I'm sort of crap at debate so I've said my tuppence. I do know however that prestige classes have always been a problem from day one because of perceptions of what they should/shouldn't be and how people felt about that whether they had one or whether they didn't. But again, different strokes - there is a lot of rp around that I won't touch with a bargepole which apparently people are totally fine with. Prestige classes is just another form of rp. Avoid it if you don't like it.

[Wuvvums]

Honestly I hear a lot of "creativity and "character progression" said but the fact of the matter is we are not just forum rping...we are playing an MMO, which is a game that comes down, first and last, to stats. I have seen people say time and time again that anyone below level 20 shouldn't be playing anything badass, and this is considered acceptable. Why? Because we are using a game frame which first and last comes down to numbers and ability, and I'm actually fine with that. I am playing a low level hunter who is nothing special. If he came up against a prestige character I would fully expect for him to get his butt handed to him on a plate. And then I expect as he grows and experiences a bit more battle prowess I'd expect him to progress himself to the point where he might even be harder to take down - and that is also considered character progression.

If we wanted to just do character rp alone, then we could use any platform other than an MMO - rather than neuter everything a MMO is (and I've seen people try, it's cringeworthy), it's worth remembering that MMOs just sort of have that sort of feel to them...and again, it isn't a bad thing either. If you want to sit and tavern rp everything, then fine, go ahead. But if I want to play a game by the numbers, and work toward improving those numbers by fighting things ingame and even going so far as to use the dungeons and quests to work my story around to something bigger? There shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately however...there always seems to be.

Anyway..I'm sort of crap at debate so I've said my tuppence.

This really doesn't belong in this discussion here, and it would also change the dynamic of the server, especially considering that almost all the 80s here did not have to quest and level for it, but instead write a profile. And a lot of the level 50s used bronze tokens.

And it would be unfair to say that someone is a "nothing" because they are this level. Levels and stats are an OOC concept and to have it anything otherwise would seriously break the rp. I mean, a bunch of us level 80s could get together and wipe out Stormwind like they do on retail; does that mean we should assume that a small raid group can outpower and entire city and army? No. The thing is is that MMOs give players a different scale of power than the environment. MMOs usually build themselves for something -other- than roleplay. I hope that clears some things up.

[Roxas65]

Honestly I hear a lot of "creativity and "character progression" said but the fact of the matter is we are not just forum rping...we are playing an MMO, which is a game that comes down, first and last, to stats. I have seen people say time and time again that anyone below level 20 shouldn't be playing anything badass, and this is considered acceptable. Why? Because we are using a game frame which first and last comes down to numbers and ability, and I'm actually fine with that. I am playing a low level hunter who is nothing special. If he came up against a prestige character I would fully expect for him to get his butt handed to him on a plate. And then I expect as he grows and experiences a bit more battle prowess I'd expect him to progress himself to the point where he might even be harder to take down - and that is also considered character progression.

If we wanted to just do character rp alone, then we could use any platform other than an MMO - rather than neuter everything a MMO is (and I've seen people try, it's cringeworthy), it's worth remembering that MMOs just sort of have that sort of feel to them...and again, it isn't a bad thing either. If you want to sit and tavern rp everything, then fine, go ahead. But if I want to play a game by the numbers, and work toward improving those numbers by fighting things ingame and even going so far as to use the dungeons and quests to work my story around to something bigger? There shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately however...there always seems to be.

Anyway..I'm sort of crap at debate so I've said my tuppence. I do know however that prestige classes have always been a problem from day one because of perceptions of what they should/shouldn't be and how people felt about that whether they had one or whether they didn't. But again, different strokes - there is a lot of rp around that I won't touch with a bargepole which apparently people are totally fine with. Prestige classes is just another form of rp. Avoid it if you don't like it.

We're not really playing an MMO. We're using an MMO as a medium to roleplay. The ingame level of our characters is purely OOC and should not affect their skills IC.

[Mirivian]

This really doesn't belong in this discussion here, and it would also change the dynamic of the server, especially considering that almost all the 80s here did not have to quest and level for it, but instead write a profile. And a lot of the level 50s used bronze tokens.

Really? Why not? What if some of us did want to not get an insta-level? After all it takes a month, right? There's a way to hold it back and do it differently and why not?

And it would be unfair to say that someone is a "nothing" because they are this level. Levels and stats are an OOC concept and to have it anything otherwise would seriously break the rp. I mean, a bunch of us level 80s could get together and wipe out Stormwind like they do on retail; does that mean we should assume that a small raid group can outpower and entire city and army? No. The thing is is that MMOs give players a different scale of power than the environment. MMOs usually build themselves for something -other- than roleplay. I hope that clears some things up.

Well again, here's where the 'fair' thing comes in as apparently everything has to be so fair that the playing field is totally flat. But again, that's someone else trying to interpret what my rp should be - I am not looking for it to be 'fair' in my rp; at level 14 if I go up against a level 80, I feel I should get my butt handed to me...and believe me I have done it because at the time that's what my character would do. And because a bunch of level 80s are level 80 playing an evil guild, if they really are incredibly evil creatures of doom then yes I would expect them to go out and try and take out an entire city, rather than sit around in some quiet place somewhere rping how evil they are, because well...why not use the evil? Progression again in a way that does just ignore the numbers. If they were successful or not would remain to be seen, but c'mon, why not? There was a rper who used to regularly attack the Stormwind guards when he was playing (Anyone remember Siv?) He screwed his faction up so badly that he couldn't step foot in Stormwind again or show his face...and that completely, totally fit his character right down to the ground. He actively messed his faction up for his storyline.

I do feel it's part of the discussion because there seems to be this consensus that we all have to play rp as some watered down thing and anyone who doesn't isn't really an rper...and I take a fair bit of umbrance to that. I happen to like to blend both and I DO think it can be done and done well. It doesn't make me less of a roleplayer to actually play the game at the same time. I actually go out and level my crafting, my skinning, my first aid, my fishing. Yes, I know in a few weeks I could just buy all of it after I hit 80, but it's just not the same for me.

[Roxas65]

This really doesn't belong in this discussion here, and it would also change the dynamic of the server, especially considering that almost all the 80s here did not have to quest and level for it, but instead write a profile. And a lot of the level 50s used bronze tokens.

Really? Why not? What if some of us did want to not get an insta-level? After all it takes a month, right? There's a way to hold it back and do it differently and why not?

And it would be unfair to say that someone is a "nothing" because they are this level. Levels and stats are an OOC concept and to have it anything otherwise would seriously break the rp. I mean, a bunch of us level 80s could get together and wipe out Stormwind like they do on retail; does that mean we should assume that a small raid group can outpower and entire city and army? No. The thing is is that MMOs give players a different scale of power than the environment. MMOs usually build themselves for something -other- than roleplay. I hope that clears some things up.

Well again, here's where the 'fair' thing comes in as apparently everything has to be so fair that the playing field is totally flat. But again, that's someone else trying to interpret what my rp should be - I am not looking for it to be 'fair' in my rp; at level 14 if I go up against a level 80, I feel I should get my butt handed to me...and believe me I have done it because at the time that's what my character would do. And because a bunch of level 80s are level 80 playing an evil guild, if they really are incredibly evil creatures of doom then yes I would expect them to go out and try and take out an entire city, rather than sit around in some quiet place somewhere rping how evil they are, because well...why not use the evil? Progression again in a way that does just ignore the numbers.

I do feel it's part of the discussion because there seems to be this consensus that we all have to play rp as some watered down thing and anyone who doesn't isn't really an rper...and I take a fair bit of umbrance to that. I happen to like to blend both and I DO think it can be done and done well. It doesn't make me less of a roleplayer to actually play the game at the same time.

This is a -pure- RP server. Which means that most of the gameplay effects and systems have absolutely nothing to do with the actual RP. A level 14 -can- go up against a lvl 80 and win just like a level 80 can slay a lvl 14. If you want to mix more of the game system into your RP, sure, go ahead. But this server has, at least to my knowledge, never been so, and the majority of people will never roleplay it as such.

[LostStranger]

It may be somewhat of an astonishment to you two, but such was so, Wuvvums, Roxas, on CotH. Though, it was close to half a decade ago and not any longer, I spotted your retorts and thought to say.

Hell, this place used to be an RPPvP server with an FFA flag tagged onto everyone. I bet you don't recognize the term "Reborn Shards"?

Character level played a pertinent part in the appraisal of said character's prowess. "Cliquey" is the most laconic description of the period that I can think of.

Regardless, regarding levels...

Vouch system! You either got it made, or you were surely shafted.

...a similar phenomenon at one point was (and maybe still) commonly seen across retail...

It was probably brought over, to be quite frank.

As far as the actual thread thus far is concerned...

I don't have much to comment on but that most any facet of my opinion on this controversial inflation is already reflected one way or another in what's already said.

Especially what's already said by he of the pseudonym Kaghuros.

[Roxas65]

It may be somewhat of an astonishment to you two, but such was so, Wuvvums, Roxas, on CotH. Though, it was close to half a decade ago and not any longer, I spotted your retorts and thought to say.
[align=right]Hell, this place used to be an RPPvP server with an FFA flag tagged onto everyone.

That's why I said "to my knowledge."

However, I trust that the server was changed from this for a good reason.

Regarding the vouch system; I joined just after the vouch system stopped being used. However, I did see some old posts using this system and to be honest, it wasn't that bad of an idea.


And I wrote this whole thing and then realizes how off topic I was. HerpenDerpen.

Perhaps soemthing similar to the vouch system can be used for prestiges, though? If the problem is that prestiges were made for story progression but instead up just being sources of power, why not let other players vouch for the person going through the prestige process in question? They'd vouch for the person's capability of handling a prestige and some people might've even heard of the kind of RP the prestige applicant was hoping to stir up with this.

I'm not saying it'd be the old vouch system straight off, but I think it could be a ground to work from. However, this is just another idea the staff has to think about, and I'm sure they have much better ideas in mind. I just rather it said than unsaid.

[Wuvvums]

Mostly because vouching, to some extent, becomes more about favoritism and less about ability.

[Kirabo]

This... Is amazing. Thank you, Grakor. Finally, somebody actually said something that would upset people, that would make people think. You are absolutely correct on every single statement.

It's been too many times that I've been asked to grant roll bonuses to prestiges in roll fights. I always politely commented that it's just numbers, that it is the storyline, the roleplay that matters, not victory or defeat. Too bad nobody cares to listen.

That's the average mentality of CotH; Victory or nothing. -That's- why they want roll bonuses. -That's- why they hardly ever look at the RP factor. -That's- why the community is troubled.

Most important of all, -That's- why we're no longer the same CotH. I am definitely not going to point fingers, hell, it may even be -me- who caused all this ruckus accidentally, but was unaware of it. What I'm saying here is the follow:

We don't use what we're given by you guys the way we should. That's the problem. There are solutions, but I am not one to judge those. I am merely Kirabo, a follower of the (once lovely) CotH community, and I intend to remain so against all odds.

Yes. It does sound selfish of me, as I have no current prestiges active, to say that I'd love the prestiges removed, but there you have it. They just cause even more disagreement among us, which doesn't breed good.

My two copper.

[Xigo]

I also wonder, can we roll the classes but just not have roll bonuses? It seems like that is what most of your argument is about. Lets just take them away. All characters should be RP'd at their level, and we should be able to RP our character at the strength of a level 1 to level 80 - 85 since that's the mechanics or lore that the base classes have. If a troll witch doctor is a shaman, then Can I just roll a troll shaman and RP a witch doctor? Do the GM's have to acknowledge this? Can I level a mage and just be an arch mage since, I have arch mage like spells? Portal all over world, plus to another world. With plenty of mana to spare. Hell I can be so good at tailoring I can make a flying carpet. I understand and agree, our chars are pretty OP or "Prestige"-y from the beginning but if thats the case why take away the classes. Just make them open like others, yeah they'll be more represented but like always it dies down. Just as many people want to RP an archmage as people want to RP student magi. People want demon hunters as much as demons, as much as pilots, techno mages, warriors, farmers, it's because people have different tastes for RP. What character they enjoy to role play, whether it's hero, anti-hero, villian, maiden, funny guy, or sidekick.

This... this is what I fear will happen. I could care less about whether or not prestiges exist. I just... don't want people all going 'I R ARCHMAGE' and what not. I don't want people to be that powerful. Call me crazy, but I'm bloody peeved at the amount of power people give their characters in roleplay. It seems everyone's attempting to go as over the top as possible. I've seen normal mages do things I would never dream of having my Archmage do. It's... so bloody stupid. So many of the newer players (because thus far I've only seen them do it) are rolling characters that are so damn powerful. If we allow anyone to roll anything it will just be opening the doors and letting them all go do whatever they want! And I think the result will be something I absolutely hate.

They actually made me call into question if I was roleplaying Arianna incorrectly as an Archmage. Why? Because I felt she was too weak compared to all these base class characters who dual wield floating spears and have hundreds of loyal men willing to die at her command.

Why the heck must our roleplay be 'big' to be important? Small things matter too.

You don't need to change the world to have fun and meaningful development.

(... For the record Pharoah, I was using your post as a step stone. Not to attack it!)

[Delta]

You don't need to change the world to have fun and meaningful development.

I would have to concur with this.