The Problem of Prestiges

[Uthaniel]

I don't personally think it's an excuse to stop writing.
In the end, just because Grakor said the prestige system is going away, it doesn't mean it is.
To elaborate, Grakor's point is pretty much the same as if he said "CoTH is going to end." It's neither true or false, because CotH is eventually going to end. Worst case scenario, I doubt Kretol is immortal to host the server forever; Similarly, like he said himself, "The prestiges are going away." Because they are, someday. He also stated himself that the time it will take for this is unknown, even if certain, and even then, I honestly doubt they'd disregard all the effort the writers have put into their characters as the very first post of this thread already stated they're taking this in consideration.

I'll keep writing Juna's posts, and if they it gets canceled, I'll likely just move them to "Storylines" for the development and keep writing.
/shrug

In the end, to me, this post is like saying we're all going to die one day, or anything of the sort. Nothing survives the test of time, and thus everything eventually ends. It's not like nobody didn't know this wouldn't happen; He just decided to make the fact that it's being discussed in this particular moment, public.

[Duraza]

Yes, I'm probably moreso desiring to defend a prestige than anything else because I have one... However, of all the things I'd like to say this struck me as the most valuable.

What keeps on coming back and is somewhat annoying is the sentiment that 'well, a witch doctor is just apart of the shaman class to begin with.' Yes, that's true. Their abilities are basically the same. A necromancer is just a Death Knight without a sword. A shadow ascendant is a glorified shadow priest stuck in shadowform. A demon hunter is a melee warlock... Need I go on or do you see what I did there?

None of those classes are just a set of abilities that you can just latch on to a character with some random title and say 'cool, that works too.' If they are for you then I am disappoint to say the least. Witch doctors hold a special place in Troll culture, as Shadow Ascendants hold that place in Forsaken culture and Demon Hunters for Kaldorei culture. If you just take a handful of abilities and slap a title on it and you as a player are okay with that... Then it sounds to me more like you're just interested in the powers/prestige of it all to begin with. And that's what half of you are arguing against right? 'No more roll bonuses! No more powers.... but hey can I keep these abilities and get a new fancy title?'

Perhaps its just me but I can't wrap my head around how any of this makes logical sense. Next, people will be arguing about how 'playerx has z ability and uses it all the time and how annoying it is that they get that ability, etc etc.' Really, if you want to stop that headache from occurring than be more careful of who you give powers to and if they can't handle them have those powers removed. Much simpler fix to two of the problems listed: That they kill rp and are taken for power.

So, what you're left with is this problem with them not fitting in with the class system... But honestly, like I said earlier... Yes the abilities are the same. A warlock can go metamorphosis and so can a Demon Hunter. But being a Demon Hunter is so much more than the metamorphosis ability... The culture and stigma that a Demon Hunter brings around with him is unique to that class. That should be the reason to play it, not its ability set, title, etc. But that its a unique RP and you need to have the prestige to have the lore associated with it. In the same way, thats why I think many dislike that Dark Rangers must be human. A human Dark Ranger lacks any of the depth of history/lore and reason that a Quel'dorei Dark Ranger does.

That's the real driving force for wanting a prestige in my opinion... Or at least it should be. And there's nothing wrong with it. Warlocks have their own 'culture' and people who meet them automatically think of certain things. In that same way a Witch Doctor who walks through a Troll tribe brings with him his own stigma. Even if any Shaman can use a Witch Doctor's abilities the Witch Doctor simply isn't 'just another shaman.' Just like a shaman still isn't a Witch Doctor... Its a very obvious point I'm trying to make and I hope I'm not beating anyone over the head with the stick more than necessary (but I shall continue to beat you regardless).

So, even if by some miracle there was some new system that came out of sorts... I would still feel like my own work (and perhaps I should have known better than to work so hard on my story) had been crapped on to say the least. It was more than just a bunch of abilities and my character's journey to find them... And it was more than just beating people in the face for character development. It was also the path to my character becoming something culturally significant to his own people and thus dramatically changing the person he is. I would gladly remove any ability I had to use any powers he wields to keep that significance.

Of course, its not my server to make decisions.

[Cressy]

The post of the thread is to make everyone aware of the changes that will happen.

I have to say this, though. I keep reading people complain about how their characters will have to retconned and whatever else..But, guys. I know some of you haven't existed here as long as some of us...when they did a restart, everyone but a chosen few were set back to peons. All of the character profiles were..WIPED...There really was no 'retconning', it was erased. I mean, f**k, we couldn't log onto the server for a..MONTH.

And people are complaining that if we do a restart, you will have to retcon what ever history, bits and pieces that you have to and keep RPing on your merry way?

It irritates me to no end how you act like this will be the end of the world if it goes away. It won't guys.

Just be roleplayers; adapt, have fun, sing pirate songs and have erping elves.

I mean, damn.

[Reese]

2. Prestiges were taken for reasons of power, not character development.

Let's be honest: prestiges are nice because people like roll bonuses. People like being special and important. Some prestiges were used to further characters, but most of the time it was a bid for power and little more.

Yes and no. I can't speak for everyone, and I've done little to actually look at all the stuff people are posting, but hey, I have a short attention span. Don't hate me!

I won't deny roll bonuses can be cool, but as you say, they steal the spotlight in a tournament with Myrmidons doing they're experience thing. Trust RP would effectively eliminate this, but that's another argument entirely.

I believe that prestiges are a very, very crucial way for a character to grow. In a sense, they're solely for character development. Even those who initially desire a prestige merely because they're powerful (not naming names because I have none, this is but harmless point making) must change they're character some how. Otherwise it wouldn't be a story! For example, Safksha is currently becoming a Savagekin. Not because I want him to be as strong and quick as an animal, but because the story involves him being hurt emotionally and separating himself from the world the only way he can and always has, by running. Little does he know, he's going down a road that will change his very person into a world-raging vicious machine... who now hates Orcs. It's part of the story. Heh.

He changes, not necessarily for the better, and not because of power, but because I think it'll be fun for him to become a rage filled destructive cat-man.

I don't think prestiges should be retconned, and I don't think they should be completely redone again. I think that we as a server can be mature about where we want our characters to go and why we want them to go there.

[Grakor456]

Even if any Shaman can use a Witch Doctor's abilities the Witch Doctor simply isn't 'just another shaman.' Just like a shaman still isn't a Witch Doctor... Its a very obvious point I'm trying to make and I hope I'm not beating anyone over the head with the stick more than necessary (but I shall continue to beat you regardless).

I think the example you used here is poor.

For all intents and purposes, Troll Shaman ARE Witch Doctors, just under a different name. At the very least, the current Shaman class is a blend of Orc Shaman/Far Seer, Troll Witch Doctor, and Tauren Spirit Walker in order to have the class make sense for all three races. OOCly, it's to make a class that will work for all three concepts and blend them together to make an interesting thing to play. ICly, you can blame it on the cultures mixing together and the different disciplines of shamanism merging due to the closeness of the three cultures.

Witch Doctors are important to Troll culture, yes. However, so are Orc Shamans in general to their own culture.

I'm not going to comment on Demon Hunters because they are an exception, and I'm not going to comment on Shadow Ascendants because our version of them was never a canon version to begin with (for starters, Ascendants weren't priests in the source material.)

[Terant]

I agree with this completely. Getting rid of prestiges is just fine. The people who are saying roleplay will -not- suffer are the people who have been on CotH when there were no prestiges whatsoever. Trust experience in this case.

Besides, it's not like all the work put into prestige classes just disappears. The threads are still archived and saved. People remember. Nobody is taking something from you that belonged to you in the first place. Having your characters on a selective private server for WoW roleplay is a privilege, not a right. So, there is no valid reason to complain when the admins and GM team decide to change something in a way that they feel will make the server better overall.

I doubt anybody's opinions will change from this, but I just hope everyone realizes what Cressy basically said: This is not a big deal. Calm down. Get on with life and RP, because you can.

[Aphetoros]

Even if any Shaman can use a Witch Doctor's abilities the Witch Doctor simply isn't 'just another shaman.' Just like a shaman still isn't a Witch Doctor... Its a very obvious point I'm trying to make and I hope I'm not beating anyone over the head with the stick more than necessary (but I shall continue to beat you regardless).

I think the example you used here is poor.

For all intents and purposes, Troll Shaman ARE Witch Doctors, just under a different name. At the very least, the current Shaman class is a blend of Orc Shaman/Far Seer, Troll Witch Doctor, and Tauren Spirit Walker in order to have the class make sense for all three races.

It's depends on how you play a character, and I think a lot of people forget that.

[Grakor456]

It's depends on how you play a character, and I think a lot of people forget that.

Yes, though that brings up variations based on classes. Troll Shaman are Witch Doctors in the same way that Blood Elf Paladins are Blood Knights. People will be quick to point out that not everyone that plays a Belfadin plays a part of the Blood Knight order, and that's true, because there will always be aberrations.

In this particular case, I feel that saying "Troll Shamans are Witch Doctors" is a true enough statement that it can be taken, at least on certain individual basis, as true enough for many characters. I don't feel that Witch Doctor is a title that is particularly prestigious (at least, no more than Orcish Shaman) or particularly powerful to any extent that would require special permission to play.

[Anski]

A wipe is a good thing. We are not the sum of our possessions. I and many others have used their Prestige's for a major purpose of forwarding RP instead of gaining roll bonuses, but even then characters must go. It inspires great creativity amongst the server when they wipe their slates clean and think of whole new characters. Reusing the same characters over and over again begins to tear on a person's ability and willingness to spread themselves outward into a new ground and build their capabilities as a mature roleplayer. Will I miss my two prestiges? Greatly. I've put a lot of hours and meaningful roleplay into them. When the server had it's last restart, sadly of which not many of you were around to see, I was expecting not just a breath of fresh air but a massive windstorm of new beginnings.

This was not the case.

People recreated their characters. They retconned a few things. Everyone just went back to playing the same characters they did before, and everything went back into a clique'd rut and I was terribly, terribly sad. The server is not a democracy of marching freedom. Grakor and Kretol give us what they feel is nice, and if we're not going to play nicely, then they can turn it into a police state if they were so bent to do so. But this isn't the case. They're simply deciding to stand up for something they feel isn't working anymore. It did, sort of, when we were a smaller server, but we're adapting to the times. It's nice to have these things, and it's incredibly nice of the two to give them to us, but if they go, they go. Perhaps they'll think of something to give to the players in place of it, something brand new instead of a refurbished prestige system. What i'm saying is; seize this opportunity, COTH. When the graffiti of your characters existence is sandblasted off the whitewall of the convenience store, are you going to take your spraycan and paint the same picture that was on there before or are you going to create something new, something better? Don't be afraid of having your hard work washed away, it means you can make something new. Your characters won't be instantly recognizable from the start, like Reigen to Reigen, Navren to Anski, Marianna to Rosencrat, etc: but that's the way it should be sometimes. Don't be afraid of being the new fish in a big pond again, especially if everyone becomes the new fish again.

Word.

[Ural]

In my opinion the prestige system was too intimidating for me to commit to. I don't like writing under pressure, even if it's pseudo... I blame public education.

About the 'waste factor': It's not the destination, it's the journey. Should any of my characters up and die and/or be retcon'ed to oblivion, I would still agree with this statement. Perhaps I spend too much time in the IC-forums, but none of it seems like a waste to me. From my own epic single post for Ural to the spiraling novel that is Valda, it's a visual of how far my writing skills have gone. Same with profiles: Ural is hardly profile worthy but it was my first. I look at Relijord's profile and cover my face from all the detail to history. To me, Valda's has a nice balance. Koiella is the most mentally developed character I think I have.

Final thoughts: Personally, I believe the best part of the prestige system were the custom-made ones by the own players based on their own drive to develop their character.

Spoiler:

Not an attack on the GMs' content. I thought the work as a whole was professional, regardless of how it was used.

[Aphetoros]

A wipe is a good thing. We are not the sum of our possessions. I and many others have used their Prestige's for a major purpose of forwarding RP instead of gaining roll bonuses, but even then characters must go. It inspires great creativity amongst the server when they wipe their slates clean and think of whole new characters. Reusing the same characters over and over again begins to tear on a person's ability and willingness to spread themselves outward into a new ground and build their capabilities as a mature roleplayer. Will I miss my two prestiges? Greatly. I've put a lot of hours and meaningful roleplay into them. When the server had it's last restart, sadly of which not many of you were around to see, I was expecting not just a breath of fresh air but a massive windstorm of new beginnings.

This was not the case.

People recreated their characters. They retconned a few things. Everyone just went back to playing the same characters they did before, and everything went back into a clique'd rut and I was terribly, terribly sad. The server is not a democracy of marching freedom. Grakor and Kretol give us what they feel is nice, and if we're not going to play nicely, then they can turn it into a police state if they were so bent to do so. But this isn't the case. They're simply deciding to stand up for something they feel isn't working anymore. It did, sort of, when we were a smaller server, but we're adapting to the times. It's nice to have these things, and it's incredibly nice of the two to give them to us, but if they go, they go. Perhaps they'll think of something to give to the players in place of it, something brand new instead of a refurbished prestige system. What i'm saying is; seize this opportunity, COTH. When the graffiti of your characters existence is sandblasted off the whitewall of the convenience store, are you going to take your spraycan and paint the same picture that was on there before or are you going to create something new, something better? Don't be afraid of having your hard work washed away, it means you can make something new. Your characters won't be instantly recognizable from the start, like Reigen to Reigen, Navren to Anski, Marianna to Rosencrat, etc: but that's the way it should be sometimes. Don't be afraid of being the new fish in a big pond again, especially if everyone becomes the new fish again.

Word.

Oh, I don't mind wiping everything. I just want some way to... well...

Vary.

[Brutalskars]

Eh. It is not like I will be retconning much of anything. I make my stuff and my storylines flexible enough I can bend them to just about any slate. So I will just carry on as usual, it isn't like I had a prestige, and you know I thought of getting one many times. But I as a DM never needed them, I was better than one, because I made RP, I made myself prestige being someone that lead RP.

However, that does not mean I just RP'd the weak peasant, Kathorg is by far one of my strongest characters, and I have played many other characters I know are actually under-powered and never deserve to win most roll fights.

I do not openly RP a lot though, I keep the GM team out of my planning and I hold my events. I keep my RP running when I desire to have it running, and I have gotten along just fine. I love having the prestiges around, and I do respect reasonable roll bonuses and the like, assuming of course that they are -reasonable-. I do not like seeing the passing of prestiges into myth, but you know, I have plans. I will make do, as I have always, so I tip my hat and say good day sir.

[Rosencrat]

C'est la vie.

[Aphetoros]

A wipe is a good thing. We are not the sum of our possessions. I and many others have used their Prestige's for a major purpose of forwarding RP instead of gaining roll bonuses, but even then characters must go. It inspires great creativity amongst the server when they wipe their slates clean and think of whole new characters. Reusing the same characters over and over again begins to tear on a person's ability and willingness to spread themselves outward into a new ground and build their capabilities as a mature roleplayer. Will I miss my two prestiges? Greatly. I've put a lot of hours and meaningful roleplay into them. When the server had it's last restart, sadly of which not many of you were around to see, I was expecting not just a breath of fresh air but a massive windstorm of new beginnings.

This was not the case.

People recreated their characters. They retconned a few things. Everyone just went back to playing the same characters they did before, and everything went back into a clique'd rut and I was terribly, terribly sad. The server is not a democracy of marching freedom. Grakor and Kretol give us what they feel is nice, and if we're not going to play nicely, then they can turn it into a police state if they were so bent to do so. But this isn't the case. They're simply deciding to stand up for something they feel isn't working anymore. It did, sort of, when we were a smaller server, but we're adapting to the times. It's nice to have these things, and it's incredibly nice of the two to give them to us, but if they go, they go. Perhaps they'll think of something to give to the players in place of it, something brand new instead of a refurbished prestige system. What i'm saying is; seize this opportunity, COTH. When the graffiti of your characters existence is sandblasted off the whitewall of the convenience store, are you going to take your spraycan and paint the same picture that was on there before or are you going to create something new, something better? Don't be afraid of having your hard work washed away, it means you can make something new. Your characters won't be instantly recognizable from the start, like Reigen to Reigen, Navren to Anski, Marianna to Rosencrat, etc: but that's the way it should be sometimes. Don't be afraid of being the new fish in a big pond again, especially if everyone becomes the new fish again.

Word.

Oh, I don't mind wiping everything. I just want some way to... well...

Vary.

As an addendum...

Maybe it won't be so bad after all.

[Kaghuros]

So uhh, exactly how pertinent is talk of restarts and retcons at the moment? Because it seems that with no truly definitive emulator for Cataclysm on the horizon, we'll be facing much of what we did in the BC -> Wrath restart. Which, for those who were not there, is a few months if not more of staying on this core, RPing the same characters.

Unless the date looms and we must make our announcements and plans now?

I kind of get the feeling that everyone is misinterpreting the signs, and there's a lot more going on behind the scenes (considering Grakor's posts after the original) with the end result of changing things some time in the future as yet unknown by anyone.