Grakor Grumbles: Race/Class Expansions

[c0rzilla]

I'm of the opinion that opening all classes for all races waters down the cultural notes to each class/race combination. I know we have rules and such about fairness on CotH, but sometimes I think fairness needs to take a backseat to quality.

To get into detail, I'd need to list every race and class combination, which would be more effort than I'm willing to expend now, and more effort than people are willing to read I think.

Sure, we are getting into custom lore. But we also needs some boundaries.

[SachikoMaeda]

I am in full support of all sorts of combinations... Just so long as they're kept under control.
What would be the possibility of delving into multi-classing? Any leniency there or will it remain a firm "NO, SACHI, STAHP WAT R U DOIN"?

[Krilari]

No multi-classing still.

[SachikoMaeda]

[Krilari]

I'm of the opinion that opening all classes for all races waters down the cultural notes to each class/race combination. I know we have rules and such about fairness on CotH, but sometimes I think fairness needs to take a backseat to quality.

The thing is that, as we open these races up, our intention is to give each their own culture. Lets use some examples:

We have the classic image of Human Paladins. Staunch warriors of the Light who make it their every intention to battle what they perceive as evil.

Now lets go with the hypothetical Troll Paladin. Trolls are known to have gods, that is no doubt, so to have one troll warrior devoted to a god is not out of the boundary. The Troll Paladin is a servant of his/her choice of Loas and fights for their cause as a blessed warmongerer.

Same class, different culture to each. At least, as I believe.

[CappnRob]

Now lets go with the hypothetical Troll Paladin. Trolls are known to have gods, that is no doubt, so to have one troll warrior devoted to a god is not out of the boundary. The Troll Paladin is a servant of his/her choice of Loas and fights for their cause as a blessed warmongerer.

See, I humongously disagree that paladin can just be some OOC class than can be used to represent any "holy warrior" for their race's god(s). They're not. Paladins are defined by their dedication to the Light and their pursuit of justice and righting wrongs. They should not be watered down to just being... "holy warriors". Trolls are savage brutal barbarian warriors, they please their gods by cutting the hell out of people, not throwing hammers of Loa-juice around. Sunwalker clause be -damned-.

[Grakor456]

I'm of the opinion that opening all classes for all races waters down the cultural notes to each class/race combination. I know we have rules and such about fairness on CotH, but sometimes I think fairness needs to take a backseat to quality.

This wasn't done exactly for fairness. It would take an absolutely amazing proposal that also manages to dispel every single doubt and lore oddity to make undead druids happen. And, even then, I might still be hesitant. Not all combinations are going to be as easy as others, just by their nature.

That said, this isn't intended to dilute racial culture. Let's take another random example that won't be very easy but was just brought up in the GM chat in response to this: tauren mage.

Now, tauren don't like the arcane. They tend to get a bit sick around it. That would seem impossible, wouldn't it? Making this happen would involve several things. First would be acknowledging that cultural response: tauren don't like mages. Perhaps our group of tauren is estranged and ostracized. Second would be overcoming that inherent problem: tauren are sickened by arcane. How do you overcome this? Maybe tauren mages are actually very skilled inscriptionists that use scrolls to cast a lot of their magic. And then, of course, there would be the storyline itself to learn how to even do this. The idea, essentially, is to use the culture to help support and strengthen the idea. If, for another example, orc paladins are using the power of the ancestors and not the Light, does that -really- take away from human paladins and their culture at all?

Warcraft is a funny setting. It poses rules and then immediately breaks them: see blood elf druids and draenei warlocks. Warcraft is also a setting that doesn't take itself too seriously. New forms of magic and science exist to help explain things as the story itself demands it. That's just how the setting is.

Edit: And you can't just dismiss that Tauren Paladins and Draenei Shamans exist. They do.

[CappnRob]

I don't dismiss Sunwalkers or Draenei shaman, but damned if they should be used as a -good example- to base our custom lore on. Wasn't the point of this to -improve- on what we felt was Blizzard's drawbacks?

Yes, I am agreeing that Draenei shaman are fairly unfitting despite being a huge draenei supporter. :|

[Grakor456]

I don't dismiss Sunwalkers or Draenei shaman, but damned if they should be used as a -good example- to base our custom lore on. Wasn't the point of this to -improve- on what we felt was Blizzard's drawbacks?

Then we have a simple disagreement that this was a drawback. Personally, Sunwalkers was one of the few things I really liked about Cataclysm. I love the idea of taking a class and putting completely different spins and cultural views on it.

[Mathias]

Paladins are defined by their dedication to the Light and their pursuit of justice and righting wrongs. They should not be watered down to just being... "holy warriors".

And when blood elves were introduced as paladins, they were not dedicated to the Light, pursuing justice, righting wrongs (well, they were righting wrongs committed against them, at least), and were, in short, "holy warriors" that were stealing the Light from a Naaru. Granted, this all changed with the Sunwell patch and they went the path of a draenei-style paladin by gaining their abilities from a naaru rather than stealing, but still, paladin has not always been "dedicated warrior of Light".

[CappnRob]

Paladins are defined by their dedication to the Light and their pursuit of justice and righting wrongs. They should not be watered down to just being... "holy warriors".

And when blood elves were introduced as paladins, they were not dedicated to the Light, pursuing justice, righting wrongs (well, they were righting wrongs committed against them, at least), and were, in short, "holy warriors" that were stealing the Light from a Naaru. Granted, this all changed with the Sunwell patch and they went the path of a draenei-style paladin by gaining their abilities from a naaru rather than stealing, but still, paladin has not always been "dedicated warrior of Light".

High elf paladins were a thing before though, and after TBC they got "redeemed". Nevermind the whole purpose of the Blood Knights was meant to be a perversion of the classic heroic paladin. Blood knight "justice" was being authoritarian and dystopian... so while they were certainly not "heroic", they still fit in that same general mold, if as a subversion of it.

[Grakor456]

Hooked in a poll.

[Mathias]

High elf paladins were a thing before though, and after TBC they got "redeemed". Nevermind the whole purpose of the Blood Knights was meant to be a perversion of the classic heroic paladin. Blood knight "justice" was being authoritarian and dystopian... so while they were certainly not "heroic", they still fit in that same general mold, if as a subversion of it.

They were, but a blood elf paladin was not like a high elf paladin. They lost the Light and received a gift from Kael'thas that would allow them to regain it through stealing. Yes, they get redeemed at the end of BC and go back to their old ways quickly once they realize "It was the Naaru's plan all along for us to drain magic". And Sunwalker, as much as you hate it, allows for other combinations.

Granted, I personally wouldn't say yes to an undead paladin (THE PAIN) nor a night elf paladin (because the "paladin" for night elves is the Priestess of the Moon), but I think it could work for other races.

Spoiler:

GOBLIN
PALADINS

[FlyingSquirrel]

What would you say for classes that really can't be explained in all too many ways? I.E., Druids. I can't really see any other races being taught it through the Cenarion Circle, as (from what we've seen) they haven't really been too pro-active in recruitment. It was Night Elves and Tauren originally IIRC, with the Worgen added in because they felt guilty and the Trolls added in because they already basically knew it, so they might as well keep the trade secrets together.

[CappnRob]

An orc that uses the ancestors to help fight is a -Spirit Champion-. Which are warriors... with light to NO armor. Their powers manifest as premonitions and supernatural evasion/attack techniques. There is nothing in line with them as "paladins". Sunwalkers at least have the Light = Fire analogy to work with.

You know, speaking of Spirit Champions and such, there was a ruling a while ago that made them Orc and Tauren only. Would this effectively nullify that ruling, then? I know there was a big commotion for Horde to maintain some of their cultural identity and keep Draenei/Dwarfs from moving in on their turf. Spirit walkers, too.