Grakor Grumbles: Race/Class Expansions

[Grakor456]

Let's start with something else while we're doing this. Those of you who want to see some but not all, can you do one of two things: list the combinations you either really want to see, and/or list the combinations you really -don't- want to see. If possible, try to justify why you particularly do/do not want to see that combination.

[FlyingSquirrel]

There are three main classes I'm worried about seeing too wide-spread.

Druids: To be honest, I'd prefer to see Druids stick with their current races. I talked about this previously in the thread, but on top of the fact that really no other races would make sense, I don't really think the Cenarion Circle would be looking for all too many more races or people. I suppose the point I'm getting at is that Druidism has it's own little niche in the Warcraft Universe, and that niche is already kinda bulging out. There wouldn't really be a use to adding anything new.

Shamans: Before I begin; the people in the Twilight's Hammer, for the most part, are not Shamans. They are Elementalists, those that access the Elements through Arcane instead of asking the Elements for favor. Think of a Mage's Frost spell that summons a water elemental, then apply that to the other elements.

The thing to consider with the Elements is that they're not exactly open to everyone. It took twenty years and Green Jesus Moses for them to take the Orcs back, who'd served them for hundreds of years previously. They went to the Draenei because they had no one else to and needed someone to help them. The Goblins... well, I don't even know what's up with them. Beyond these three races, every other one has been working with them for hundreds of years continuously. Tauren, Trolls, Dwarves.

My point is that the Elements don't immediately open up to a race, or person. Especially in a time like this, where we know that two of the Elemental Lords are trying to kill all the mortals. But that doesn't discount the chance; someone could easily go with a Dark Shamanism route, given a proper teacher, or even get attached to Earth. The only races I couldn't really see going with it are Blood Elves, Undead and Gnomes. Gnomes are too focused on technology to really care about nature, while the Undeads are considered abominations by the Elements, and would probably be refused. Same with Blood Elves. All the other races, there's a slim possibility, but one nonetheless.

Paladins: Paladins are a fairly varied group, as has been argued earlier. If we're sticking with Na'aru-based Paladin-ry, as we've seen as the main example (bar Sunwalkers), then I could see most races going with it. The only race I really have an issue with going Paladin is Worgen. I say Worgen because we know that being a Paladin protects Humans from the Worgen Curse. Obviously, if they abandon this Paladin-ness, then I think it would kinda be silly for them just to hop back to it. I also want to say that Forsaken shouldn't have it as well, with something about how using the Light is different between Paladins and Priests, but I earnestly don't know enough about the Light and how it works to really back my claim up.

I'd also ask that we take into consideration the time this all takes. You can't really learn a new profession in weeks, especially if it's one that your race is brand new to.

[c0rzilla]

Let's start with something else while we're doing this. Those of you who want to see some but not all, can you do one of two things: list the combinations you either really want to see, and/or list the combinations you really -don't- want to see. If possible, try to justify why you particularly do/do not want to see that combination.

Uuuuuuuuuuuugh work.

I kid.

Anyway, what I'm gonna do is list all the races and what they have that is currently unavailable. I'll color what I like green, and don't like red, inbetween is yellow. And list a small justification below.

Human - Shaman, Druid
Humans have zero history in regards to shamanism that I can recall. As well, their most hated enemies, the orcs, have shamanism as their highest spiritual rank. I do not see how a human could be a shaman. Druids are explained via harvest witches, though I don't want to see humans shape shifting. Keep it to very basic natural magics.

Dwarf - Druid
I don't know much about the Wildhammer, but they do have a history of shamanism. Could they also partake in druidism? Maybe.

Night Elf - Paladin, Shaman, Warlock
Paladin, maybe. I think there's an NPC that's showing an interest in the paladin lifestyle. Shaman? No. I don't think there's any hint of them showing an interest in this path. Warlock? Waaay no. Don't night elves turn into satyr or something when they use fel? Gross.

Gnome - Paladin, Hunter, Shaman, Druid
I can see paladins and hunters for gnomes due to their history with the dwarves, and the recent addition of priests. Shamans and druids? They tear up nature nearly as much as goblins do. Maaaaybe shaman, in the vein of goblin shamanism. Maybe.

Draenei - Rogue, Warlock, Druid
I'm going to define "rogue" as an agility-based fighter that wears leather. Culturally, draenei do not have the assassin and spy-focused associations other races do. Warlock? No. Keep Sargerei in MoP. Druid...maaaaybe. There are broken "druids", and the draenei are close to the night elves. Perhaps one picks up some small-time natural magics. I don't think the draenei are attuned to Azeroth enough to commune in the Dream.

Worgen - Paladin, Shaman
Paladin, no. The status of paladin renders one immune to the curse. I do not think a worgen could learn to harness the Light like a paladin could after being cursed due to how a curse changes the soul, yada yada magic, curses are weird. Shaman, no. Worgen are culturally human, so see the human reasoning for no shaman.

Orc - Paladin, Priest, Druid
Paladins and priests are a no-go for me. For the Sunwalker clause, they're sun-focused warrior druids. Or whatever. The orcs have no druid class to progress to a "Sunwalker" from. That aside, they could have started to learn and harness druidism from the tauren and trolls.

Undead - Paladin, Shaman, Druid
There are only a couple undead paladins in lore, and they're extreeeeeeme cases of righteousness or insanity. As for the other two, nature doesn't have the spiritual leniency Light does for priests. You're an abomination, you need to be buried. That aside, I mentioned above the possibility of an alchemist twisting nature, or maaaaaybe an undead that forces the elements akin to goblins. Those workarounds may be possible, but not true druids or shamans please.

Tauren - Rogue, Mage, Warlock
Tauren ain't gonna be doin' no sneakin'. They're huge. Any "dagger" they wield may as well be a sword. As far as mages...maybe. Big maybe. I can see a tauren ley-walker perhaps. Warlocks? There's something called the "pathbreaker", likely an RPG thing. Tauren that use fel, but moreso in a brutish way.

Troll - Paladin
No. I know I maybed with the Sunwalker and orcs up there, but no. Their "holy warrior" class is the Shadowhunter.

Blood Elf - Shaman, Druid
If a sin'dorei were to force nature with arcane or other magics, I can see either of these being used. But no shape shifting, please.

Goblin - Druid, Paladin
Nope. They don't have the cultural background for paladin, and paladins aren't "priests in plate". Far as druidism, I'd again say, nature-forced-with-arcane.

[Beltharean]

This is from an iPad, so sorry if there are a bunch of typos or weird sentences, but here's what I think.

I think most people are confused about the way this would work. When someone plays a Troll with the paladin class, they're NOT playing a paladin. They're playing a Troll Priest with armor. An undead Druid wouldn't be a Druid. They'd be an arcanist twisting nature with magic like the blood elves. A while ack cappn mentioned something about Paladins needing to be righteous do-gooders with hammer spells, and he's right. But a Troll Priest with armor doesn't. In-character that hammer spell is going to be a javelin. The light isn't supplying the power, the loa are. When push comes to shove, this is just opening up variants of classes to new races which as far as I'm concerned, well.... Is what a -variant- system is all about.

[Snuggley]

I'm opposed to this. Class restrictions are fine the way they are. If you want something a little different, then roleplay your character a little different. If you need to fall back on your stats and point at what the game says your class is, you're probably doing something wrong.

[MstrCorvus]

Things I want to see/Thing I think make relative sense:

- Night Elf Paladin: As I mentioned in my first post, something akin to a Warcraft 3 Priestess of the Moon would be nice. A priest who wears armor and swings a weapon isn't really -too- outlandish, is it?

- Dwarven Druid: Wildhammer Dwarves are already close to nature in the shamanistic sense but it does mention in lore that Wildhammers are very close to nature in the more tree-y, animal-y way too. So it's only a hop skip and a jump from Wildhammer shamanism to Wildhammer Druidism. Probably no shapeshifting, though.

Gnome Hunter: An itty-bitty gnome with a turtle-mounted gun, riding into battle? Sounds fine to me.

Worgen Paladin: I'm not sure if becoming a paladin and being a Light-based warrior would cleanse a Worgen of the curse but in the case (likelihood) that it doesn't, I don't see why a Gilnean paladin would lose their powers upon becoming Worgenised.

Tauren Mages: These are a stretch and I'm not really too fussed on this but I can see it being a possibly. Young'uns being curious about the arcane and wanting to learn more about it because there's always that one kid.....

Goblin Paladin: Put a priest in a Bruiser outfit and bing, bang boom.

[Mathias]

Goblin paladin.
Goblin druid.
Goblin spirit champion.
Goblin felsworn.
Goblin dragonsworn.
Goblin King of Stormwind.
Goblin Warchief of Orgrimmar.

These are the classes I approve of.

[Krent]

I went ahead and voted for "Open up all race / class possibilities!" Why? Because some of these sound hilarious. And I've always been more of an RP anarchist.

I'm gonna go ahead and give my approval for the concept of an Undead Druid because I wanna see someone try to make such a crazy thing work.

[cartoonkarl]

A thing to note: Tauren could be rogues, but not the stealthy kind of rogues. Rogues are portrayed as also being the 'Bully' archetype. The Grimtotems have a lot of 'rogues' and they use a lot of rougish tactics as well as poisons. I would be fine if a Tauren was a rouge, but not the 'sneaky sneaky' type of way.

Tauren can be sneaky in their own way, I.E. when hunting and the likes, as well as being well known for setting up ambushes (I.E the Grimtotems).

But as I said, a Tauren rogue would be a combat rogue or 'bully' not a sneaker.

[flammos200]

Things that should be:

Dorf Druid: Wildhammer Dwarves have druids IC. Give us them in-game too.

BElf Druid: Botanists and Elven Rangers' nature mages. Since Fel cuts you off from the Emerald Dream, they would not shapeshift(Beyond self-polymorphing, perhaps), but everything else a Druid does is doable.

BElf Shaman: For the more spiritually-inclined, or perhaps Dark Shaman-y ways, forcing the spirits to do their bidding in the same way they bent the Light to become Paladins.

NElf Paladin: Night Elven Priestess of the Moon. They wear platemail in the lore, besides. And they wield divine power. Therefore, Paladin. Plus, we have plenty of Argent NElves on the server.

NElf Shaman: Nelves are close to the Draenei -and- close to nature. They are the absolute perfect race for a Shaman expansion.

Undead Paladin: Sir Zeilek proves that even in undeath, the Light may yet answer if your faith is honest and true. Plus, as characters like Endling have shown, a Lightwielding Undead can be an exceptionally good motif to explore, story-wise.

Things I am okay with:

Human Shaman: Perhaps inspired by the Barbarians of Arathor, the animistic tendencies of humankind can be greatly expanded upon.

Gnome Hunter: Gnomes and engineering are best bros. Perhaps even mechanical pets.

Orc Paladin: The Orcs value their ancestors, and a warrior consecrated in their name is certainly an interesting option.

Troll Paladin: As above, but consecrated to the Loa.

Draenei Rogue: Nobody says a Draenei can't be a Rogue.

Things I think should not be:

Gnome Paladin: Gnomes are only at the start of dabbling in the Light, and even then have issues with following its precepts.

Gnome Druid: Engineering and nature don't mix.

Goblin Druid: Selfishness and engineering are no companions for nature.

Goblin Paladin: Paladins are altruistic. Goblins, by and large, are not.

Draenei Warlock: They're called Eredar. Need I say more?

Night Elf Warlock: Nope. They've spent the last ten thousand years fighting Fel. Not a chance in hell.
____________________________________________________

I believe that says all I needed to say.

[Krilari]

I voted for unlocking all because I'm silly and enjoy silly things. I want to see everyone give their favorite unusual class/race combo a shot. I want to see where people can go with this custom lore. Remember, half of this project is the class combinations themselves. The other half, however, is letting the playerbase end up as a pioneer in leadership amongst your race. This is the first example of where a player's action will have a major effect on the world around them.

But, I do see a sort of a problem here. It looks like, in my eyes, this will have to be a case of all or nothing. From the few we've seen so far we already see disagreements amongst what is considered acceptable and what is not. If we allow only a few then I'm going to wager a great many will be discontent with what they can/can not play. If we do all, we at least give everyone a shot at what they want. The alternative, of course, is to plug this up and not bother with these custom combos.

[MstrCorvus]

I think it should at least be given a trial run before getting totally plugged. Like, if it ends up working, then yay for us! If not, we say 'we tried' and then put it on a shelf.

[muhaha8]

I went ahead and voted to allow any and all combos. The stipulation here, though, is that I feel we should require a serious process to go through in order to get these ideas through and allowed. Probably a lengthy dialogue between staff and player on the merits and demerits of each and every combo put forth. If not all parties are satisfied with an explanation, then it should not be allowed. If there are unaccounted-for complaints, and questions that cannot be answered, then it should not be allowed. It's plain and simple.

I genuinely enjoy the concept of this idea. I really do. As Kril put it, this is a potential major step forward. Allowing all of these allows for us to shape the future of our character's races, and work towards providing some real, definite change to the lore of CotH. I'm all for giving players a huge hand in shaping events leading forward, and I feel like this is a totally awesome way to approach it.

As for people who complain about culture, I think of it this way: we play our races because of all the amazing culture that's attached to them. They're cool, and we all have our reasons for loving the ones we do. There's no denying that. Now, take that love you have for your race and its culture, and then give yourself a hand in changing it. Give yourself some influence over how it changes. How the strife from newly-emerging ideologies can provide a new outlook on life for your characters' people. How could you not want that? Sure, the vast majority of Blood Elves would probably look down on Druids. But what happens when they actually gain a significant following? What happens when their Druidic cult expands its power, and absorbs more followers? Blood Elf society is bound to change with it. And you had a hand in shaping that.

[flammos200]

I went ahead and voted to allow any and all combos. The stipulation here, though, is that I feel we should require a serious process to go through in order to get these ideas through and allowed. Probably a lengthy dialogue between staff and player on the merits and demerits of each and every combo put forth. If not all parties are satisfied with an explanation, then it should not be allowed. If there are unaccounted-for complaints, and questions that cannot be answered, then it should not be allowed. It's plain and simple.

I genuinely enjoy the concept of this idea. I really do. As Kril put it, this is a potential major step forward. Allowing all of these allows for us to shape the future of our character's races, and work towards providing some real, definite change to the lore of CotH. I'm all for giving players a huge hand in shaping events leading forward, and I feel like this is a totally awesome way to approach it.

As for people who complain about culture, I think of it this way: we play our races because of all the amazing culture that's attached to them. They're cool, and we all have our reasons for loving the ones we do. There's no denying that. Now, take that love you have for your race and its culture, and then give yourself a hand in changing it. Give yourself some influence over how it changes. How the strife from newly-emerging ideologies can provide a new outlook on life for your characters' people. How could you not want that? Sure, the vast majority of Blood Elves would probably look down on Druids. But what happens when they actually gain a significant following? What happens when their Druidic cult expands its power, and absorbs more followers? Blood Elf society is bound to change with it. And you had a hand in shaping that.

Well-said. I suppose the first option allows us to change the world, which is the point of custom lore.

Yes... Yes, this makes sense. Yeah, all right, why not. Maybe we -will- see Goblins get a redemption arc and make for themselves a future in the Light.

Let's dew dis.

[Werewolf]

Personally I'm anti-custom-lore altogether, and stuff like "Well, Blood Elves can use their arts to bend the Light to their will, so we can extend that logic to say they can become shamans and druids" just sounds super custom-lorey to me.

That said, there are clearly some combinations (gnome hunter is probably the most glaring) that most obviously should exist but don't only for gameplay reasons. Blizzard needed to maintain exactly 45 race-class combinations for each faction to keep them balanced, and while they generally did a pretty good job adhering to the lore in their fulfillment of that task, inevitably they hit a few snags--like that gnomes can't be hunters.

Every race can pick up a sword and swing it, so every race can be a warrior. Every race can pick up a gun and shoot it, so every race can be a hunter. Every race can dual-wield some small arms and be a "swashbuckler," so every race can be a Combat-specced rogue, if not the more traditional, sneaky kind of rogue as well.

You don't have to synthesize custom lore or even stretch the current lore for these combos to make sense. They're already fully and explicitly supported. They just don't exist because WoW as a video game needs to be balanced and 45 is the magic number.