Would anyone really mind if GMs could RP dragons as characters?

[Dae]

First it will be dragons, then lore figures will be showing up all willy-nilly to talk to people at the nearest bar.

Do you really have that little faith? :<

The benefits I see of having dragons RPing in the server are these:

1. Should we have an event in which a dragon is influencing matters, having a known (relatively) character giving orders to their subordinates or planting ideas in peoples' heads would be a lot less jarring to me than some nebulous entity doing so, both ICly and OoCly.

2. Dragonsworn can interact with their dragons more regularly, making being a dragonsworn a little more real instead of a status thing.

3. To say that RPing with dragons would amount to nothing but just a thing to brag about upon a public reveal is very demeaning to the RP experience as a whole. I mean, what's to make RPing with a hidden dragon less valid than RPing with a hunter or a druid? I love RPing with secretive characters, and a big secret like being a dragon makes the stakes higher for them to not ever be found out. Hearing the wisdom of a Bronze dragon could change a character's perspective on life, or a black dragon might stir up another's dark side. If a dragon is played well, they'll be very interesting characters to meet.

4. The positive OoC impact to me is that it makes the fantastical aspects of Azeroth much more real. While I'm all for fair and humble RP, it isn't quite a Warcraft experience unless there's great magics at work. Having hidden dragon characters would make the mystical elements of WoW more real, but in a subtle and low-key way.

The whole theme for these dragons is "subtlety." And again, we're discussing this issue right now, in a respectful and open forum. If a new user refuses to take the time to understand why things are as they are on the server, we can't help that. And yall are about the most approachable GMs I've come across on the interwebz.


Also, I'm kind of in favor of Dragon characters not being known OoCly, (unless their character knows ICly, of course) other than perhaps among the GMs for the sake of getting the character made and approved and what not. Just the fact that they were there would be enriching to me.

[Kage]

Also, I'm kind of in favor of Dragon characters not being known OoCly, (unless their character knows ICly, of course) other than perhaps among the GMs for the sake of getting the character made and approved and what not.

If you do this, you have my support.

[Rigley]

I don't have time to post in depth (and will likely return to this later for a better take on the topic after reading through the comments on this thread), but I could never advocate the use of dragons as a character outside of events. We attempt to enforce that players and GMs largely have the same restrictions to what can and cannot be played, barring some figures of importance where necessary (such as an NPC-esque character to act as a figure of authority for an area, for instance).

The only case in which I could advocate dragons is the current system of events alone; To me if we were to allow GMs some gain in playing a new concept like a dragon then it should be made available to players as well, which is not something I want to see happen. To me a dragon is the equivalent of the argent high-commanders and other lore figures that I have used -very sparingly- in events; they're important and should not be a common occurrence, and I don't feel comfortable seeing these sorts of things appearing outside of events.

...So yep. As a shorthand: I wouldn't wish to see dragons become an avidly played group, either by GMs or players.

I'll try and actually get into this discussion once I'm at home and able to read everything, so take the above as my response at face-value to this topic.

[Harmonic]

So, I'm confused.

This thread is about GM's RPing dragons as in like... going to the tavern with their friend and having a grand old time? Or they are RPing them like, going out and doing the Love Exchange stuff..?


No, that shouldn't be condoned. I think that GM's should be able to have these characters, but surely not for that purpose. I'm confused here. Are people actually doing this, or is this a worst case scenario? Because it sounds sorta silly.

[Caravan]

No, that shouldn't be condoned. I think that GM's should be able to have these characters, but surely not for that purpose. I'm confused here. Are people actually doing this, or is this a worst case scenario? Because it sounds sorta silly.

The conversation has somehow become this...which was never an intention of the original topic. I don't really know how it got this point.

Respectfully, it is silly. I have to echo Dae's question regarding the lack of faith on both sides -- player and GM. Trust the players not to flip their lid and trust the GMs not to smack peons in the face with their wings as they fly on by. I'll echo another assertion, one from Rensin, regarding a push back against stagnation.

[CappnRob]

Saying that letting GMs mold their dragon characters into actual characters with personalities beyond their cookie-cutter dragonflight personalities is a gateway to King Varian having a brewskie with the populace of Stormwind at the Blue Recluse is a big a slippery slope fallacy as I've ever seen.




... and that's ignoring the fact that some lore characters -do- freely interact with their people (coughVelencough).



Either way, I don't see the problem here. Yeah, GMs can't just do stuff because they're GMs, but they're still people of respectable character and are trustworthy with the task of RPing out dragons. This isn't going to be a flood gate for scaring off newcomers as drakes and whelps start partying like its 1999 in Orgrimmar, it's giving the dragonsworn characters something to do with their fancy titles besides cool events.

Quality control is good, but what does it matter if it lets ourselves become stagnant? Give it a try and if it doesn't work, then get rid of it.

[Dae]

So, I'm confused.

This thread is about GM's RPing dragons as in like... going to the tavern with their friend and having a grand old time? Or they are RPing them like, going out and doing the Love Exchange stuff..?


No, that shouldn't be condoned. I think that GM's should be able to have these characters, but surely not for that purpose. I'm confused here. Are people actually doing this, or is this a worst case scenario? Because it sounds sorta silly.

That's a "the whole server's gone to pot" scenario.

What I'm getting at is the GMs playing dragons as they would behave: as keep-to-themselves, mysterious people who work to further their dragon-y agendas, likely through dragonsworn and subtle means. Being too involved in mortal affairs would simply be bad roleplay with dragons. That's not to say they can't have fun or anything, but dragons are different, and their hiding that would make for interesting RP even when they're not trying to quietly enact their methods on the world.

[Harmonic]

Mm. It's like irrational fear has struck the topic.

Lemme say it this way.

Yes, I think GM's should be able to puppet and roll lore figures. Yes, I think they should be trusted with this. Otherwise THE PERSON IN QUESTION SHOULDN'T BE A GM. Why? Because if they are doing as silly as having Arthas grab a bite at the nearest pub, -really- how is this person a GM?

I mean, I understand your point Rigley, but I'm of a different standpoint---- GM's should have control over anything they see fit that has to do with the lore in Warcraft. Is it likely you bunch will have to puppet a major lore figure? Nope. Before that'd happen, a player would have to go through the process of meeting all the underlings, and blah blah, something that'd likely never happen.




However, -if- something was to happen, let's say an event leading up to some major story plots, then yes, by all means control that character. This is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM similar to rolling a "character". Meaning, as GM's it should be understood when puppeting a lore figure, you're not doing it in the standard friendly RP way, you're doing it for the reason of exposition and WORLD benefit.




If people are rolling giant arse dragons to play it as a special character, then yes, that needs to stop because it's not the point. But for some reason it's hard for me to believe that someone is doing that. Or talking about it. Because... again.

If so, some evaluations need to be made here. I know that's blunt, but c'mon, we -are- supposed to trust GM's with this stuff, it shouldn't be up for debate whether they should be able to or not, it should be up to debate if an individual is fit for the position that requires handling it.

If that makes sense.


Edit:

Spiderman would say "With great power comes great responsibility". I think this would be abuse of power, not the fault of said power.

[Kage]

.. Alright, let me try to get my point out.

GM's have the power over profiles, special or not. They can say no if they think somethings wrong. They have Banhammer capabilities, they have control over what can or cannot happen with peoples storylines. It's a lot of responsibility, and I think each of our gms have earned their right to have them. But there is an INTIMIDATION factor in all of that. To toss in the fact that they can make their own dragon characters, whether or not these characters are aspects or not, their direct descendants -of- the aspects. It's like playing as the son of Arthas or Thrall. It quiet frankly intimidates me. These are my feelings, don't throw my feelings out because they don't agree with yours, which is what seems to be happening to me so far.

[CappnRob]

Sorry to break it to you, Kage, but GMs are SUPPOSED to have SOME level of intimidation about them. That's they're -GMs-.

They're NOT average joe shmoe like you and me. They have responsibilities and powers that come with the title, with the prestige of being a GM.

GMs can be friendly, yes. They can be your BFF, they can be among your most well loved RP partners. But they're still GMs. They still have power, authority, and weight over us underlings of CotH. That's how it's supposed to be.

[Harmonic]

I'm not dismissing it, Kage. I'm trying to make sense of it. I don't understand the difference between dragons and everything else that Gm's can control or do.

Edit: I'm not saying you're wrong or right, or... anything. What I am trying to say is that I sincerely do not understand why that specifically would make them intimidating.

[Kage]

Sorry to break it to you, Kage, but GMs are SUPPOSED to have SOME level of intimidation about them. That's they're -GMs-.

They're NOT average joe shmoe like you and me. They have responsibilities and powers that come with the title, with the prestige of being a GM.

GMs can be friendly, yes. They can be your BFF, they can be among your most well loved RP partners. But they're still GMs. They still have power, authority, and weight over us underlings of CotH. That's how it's supposed to be.

Did I say they shouldn't have some level of intimidation? No I didn't. I said they shouldn't be too intimidating. What happens when someone is so intimidating that no one wants to know who they are? Just that.

And on another note? They -are- average joe shmoe's, but they love this server enough to give back, and they have my -respect- for that, not my fear.

[Caravan]

Easy on the tones, y'all. Maybe take a step back from the topic for a bit.

[Loxmardin]

I was really INB4'd here. But, anyway, gogo ramble!

I think what Kage is getting at here is the fact that the "bigger and stronger" characters such as, say, the dragons would be extremely difficult to level with OOCly and ICly. It's hard to know how to react to one of them, or to the GM playing it should this ever become the case. For the Dragon NPCs we already have with the Dragonsworn and -Flight storylines, everyone knows who they are on some level or another and their NPC status is pretty comforting since they're only around to lead these storylines without any real interaction with the world past enhancing the RP in it to give other characters their purpose, for instance.

Playing even hidden dragons, if displayed as such or publicly announced to exist, will likely be a sort of intimidating factor to someone just stumbling in who's only slightly aware of the fact that these powerful characters, figures and creatures are allowed to walk within reach of your everyday roleplayer in a daily scenario (that is, outside major plotlines and events).

It's hard to know where to put the bar in your social interactions and what to make of that sort of meeting. It likely puts a lot of stress on the player OOCly, as well, because; What if I mess this up so bad? What happens then?

That said, I personally agree with Rensin thus far. However, I don't really have much of a strong opinion either way when it comes down to it as part of our job already is to puppet NPCs in the world should the demand rise for them to be interacted with, be it for actual meetings, lawbreaking or extraordinary circumstances, or walking carelessly into hostile territory on your travels. We do try to make the world come alive with the help of the NPCs that exist, and this includes but doesn't stop at dragons and creatures of such caliber. While I believe that dragons could create something magical for the people interacting with them, I know there's several worst-case scenarios associated with having them wander with more purpose than just adding a face to the voice during events.

For me, it would just be another way to make a richer RP experience. Whether we have that dragon with a spellbook and hovering name over our heads or not doesn't matter so much to me, in truth. In this aspect, I do agree with Rigley.

TL;DR: Ultimately, there is no point in having dragons as dedicated characters since they'd fill the same purpose as our NPCs already do, as neat and fun as that could have been.

ADDENDUM: We could probably give our NPCs purpose if we wished to, the dragons and drakes, and give them tailored personalities. Heck, we could possibly create multiple draconic NPCs with a specific GM attached to them for consistency and it'd give the same ultimate effect; but they'd still be the same NPCs they were before. Used for events and storylines.

/endramble

[Dae]

.. Alright, let me try to get my point out.

GM's have the power over profiles, special or not. They can say no if they think somethings wrong. They have Banhammer capabilities, they have control over what can or cannot happen with peoples storylines. It's a lot of responsibility, and I think each of our gms have earned their right to have them. But there is an INTIMIDATION factor in all of that. To toss in the fact that they can make their own dragon characters, whether or not these characters are aspects or not, their direct descendants -of- the aspects. It's like playing as the son of Arthas or Thrall. It quiet frankly intimidates me. These are my feelings, don't throw my feelings out because they don't agree with yours, which is what seems to be happening to me so far.

A thread discussing the pros and cons of a change in policies is not the place to put personal feelings. I mean, yes, people's desires and preferences motivate their arguments, but the solidity of the arguments themselves should be the deciding factor.

If the idea of GM dragon characters upsets or threatens you, that's your problem. I don't appreciate being antagonized as "throwing out" the feelings of another user because I don't think policies should be made based on people taking them personally. If you want to talk about your feelings and why this gets to you, there are plenty of open ears and kind faces on the server. I know I've talked to others about my feelings and dealing with issues that bother me, and I know all about things freaking you out when they shouldn't. CotH can be a resource for emotional support. I can be a resource, too. But you're setting up people who like the idea of GM dragons as emotional saboteurs here, and that's not what this thread is for.