A large number of people have said that it frustrates them and even hurts their feelings to have their choices questioned and derided. The logical response is to refrain from publicly making those comments. It's a matter of courtesy and also recognition that these outbursts actually harm the community and its ability to successfully roleplay. It's understandable that people are frustrated by their inability to find roleplay outside of core races, but the caustic comments serve no real purpose other than as an inappropriate outlet and to harm others.
As Rensin has noted, there's a good way to say that you're disappointed by the lack of roleplay and there's clearly a bad way. Unfortunately, this thread points out that a lot of the more prominent examples are bad.
I think that a lot of it is that lashing out at others for playing races other than what individual players would wish isn't an acceptable response, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter. Disapproving the server's race imbalance isn't valid justification for making potentially hurtful and often denigrating comments regarding other people's -- very valid -- choices.
This isn't even an issue of people Doing It Wrong™ at this point. It's personal bias, pure and simple, which shouldn't dictate that you treat others poorly. That is never a valid reason.
Random aside/clarification: the use of the word "you" in my reply does not refer to a single person.
but it would rather accurately summarize my views on this particular matter.
On a somewhat-related aside, the snide remarks concerning lesbian characters are becoming more than a little irritating - particularly the 'pretty' ones, or those written by males. The unspoken implications that men should write or play manly men and that lesbians aren't or should not be attractive are tiresome, and pose unfortunate implications I need not get into.
A desire to explore the perspective of another gender is hardly a thing to be derided, and I can hardly blame others for wanting to write characters free of the constraints of traditional societal gender roles. In some cases, it is an escape from the imposed mantle of masculinity which men are expected to shoulder. Perhaps I implicitly admit too much, but it seems in poor taste indeed to mock one on the basis of gender identity troubles, and rather puritanical to chastise on the basis that they find it 'sexy.' Do the masses who write and roleplay heterosexual romances not find a similar catharsis and emotional appeal in them?
Furthermore, I rarely see such derision aimed at women who roleplay gay male characters - though it's not unheard of - and never see women who play men given the same grief as men who play women. Is there some sort of unspoken belief that men are superior? The preceding statement is rhetorical, of course.
I'm aware of the cliche of the hackneyed, melodramatic 'Booty Bay lesbian.' It happens. Regardless, there is a wide range of mediocre roleplay in beginner-friendly zones that is hardly exclusive to this archetype, and many of these inexperienced writers improve with time and guidance.
In short:
Yes, several of my characters are lesbians. Unless you have criticism based upon the portrayal thereof, or of their writing in general, kindly
I now apologize for my (somewhat cathartic) derailment and humbly posit we return to the issue at hand.
But how could I compete with Sachiko's Leron, manliest elf of all?
I don't think there's an expectation for people to play certain archetypes. Sure, some are more common than others, but I don't think there's a requirement that men play either manly men or attractive lesbians.
... I just sort of play what I enjoy, and I expect others to enjoy what they play. Within the confines of the lore, of course.
v I'm not sure I properly typed out my views. However, this spoiler is here for your reading, if you wish. v
Spoiler:
EDIT: I do believe, however, that people do question some concepts. And I can not blame them for it. On the subject of lesbians, I would quickly come out to question someone playing one should I believed it to be solely for the sex appeal. It's honestly just not realistic to me, the idea of characters being so enamored with sexual enterprising that it seems prevalent in all subjects. I have seen so many flirty lesbians that it has become a stereotype in my eyes. Always their sexuality is overt.
This overt sexuality, I believe, comes from people thinking too much on a character's sexuality at character creation. It seems so many times, people will set out to make characters that are 'different', that they haven't played before. Unfortunately, the thought occasionally crosses someone that 'I will make a gay character,' and they proceed to do such. The problem is not that their character has such sexuality, in fact that's not the error at all. The issue is that this is the focus point of the character's creation. Now everything is all about that character's sexuality, and it is a 'defining trait' so to speak.
This leads to unrealistic characters in my eyes. Hell, any character that is a flirtatious sex fiend in roleplay tends to make me perk a brow, unless it's done well. Often this is not the case, and this leads to a trend of lesbian characters being portrayed in an annoying or poor manner where they're constantly trying to feel up other woman, or are always talking about sex.
I wasn't ranting about them not belonging in RP or anything. I just don't think sexuality, regardless of what it might be, should be an oppressing factor in roleplay. I certainly don't enjoy it constantly happening. I can't speak for others.
I love characters. I do not love caricatures in my roleplay.
(06-04-2012, 04:40 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, I rarely see such derision aimed at women who roleplay gay male characters - though it's not unheard of - and never see women who play men given the same grief as men who play women. Is there some sort of unspoken belief that men are superior? The preceding statement is rhetorical, of course.
To be fair, I think one of the main reasons derision isn't as often aimed at females playing gay males is simply because it doesn't happen as often. They are just as prone to RPing a poorly crafted character falling into too many stereotype traps as men playing lesbians tend to. Similarly, there seems to be a thing where women will often get annoyed at how men play women, but men don't tend to feel as offended on how women play men. Again, probably because the latter doesn't happen as often as the former.
Though, I have been contemplating making a blog post concerning writing sexuality and gender. This gives me a good excuse to do that, soon.
Personally speaking, when doing female characters now I try -not- to bring in sexuality. It just... never goes well. Personally speaking, it's always gone awry when I've gotten involved as a female character, it's gone BADLY.
My main problem is when I have a character in revealing armor (Not hard to do in WoW, seriously), then people just go hay-wild with comments about how I'm a typical male and I just do it because I'm attracted to breasts on a digitally rendered image.
Well, y'know, I am a guy, for sure. Typical? Probably. Do I think my female characters should be ashamed for dressing skimpy? Dunno, should every woman feel that way when she gussies up? Should I yell at people who do cosplay at conventions?
It's a sensitive topic. But you know, it's one that I don't even know how to approach anymore because it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, with very little medium.
Wouldn't it just be easier to refrain from making less-than-positive publicly-stated comments regarding people's personal roleplaying choices altogether? That would involve any topic: character, race, sexual preferences, social activities, the individuals which whom that person roleplays, characters with whom they interact, location of roleplay, history, personality, whatever! If there's a real issue that probably should be addressed, take it to the staff.
There's always the option of posting in a feedback thread or discussing the topic one-on-one in private, whether by whispers or private messages.
I tend to be a huge advocate of open discussion, but I cannot see how making comments of these sorts can lead to discourse.
Random aside, I'd be very interested in reading your thoughts, Grakor. I may not always agree with your opinions or conclusions, but I've always found them to be insightful and informative!
I do believe, however, that people do question some concepts. And I can not blame them for it. On the subject of lesbians, I would quickly come out to question someone playing one should I believed it to be solely for the sex appeal. It's honestly just not realistic to me, the idea of characters being so enamored with sexual enterprising that it seems prevalent in all subjects. I have seen so many flirty lesbians that it has become a stereotype in my eyes. Always their sexuality is overt.
This overt sexuality, I believe, comes from people thinking too much on a character's sexuality at character creation. It seems so many times, people will set out to make characters that are 'different', that they haven't played before. Unfortunately, the thought occasionally crosses someone that 'I will make a gay character,' and they proceed to do such. The problem is not that their character has such sexuality, in fact that's not the error at all. The issue is that this is the focus point of the character's creation. Now everything is all about that character's sexuality, and it is a 'defining trait' so to speak.
This leads to unrealistic characters in my eyes. Hell, any character that is a flirtatious sex fiend in roleplay tends to make me perk a brow, unless it's done well. Often this is not the case, and this leads to a trend of lesbian characters being portrayed in an annoying or poor manner where they're constantly trying to feel up other woman, or are always talking about sex.
I wasn't ranting about them not belonging in RP or anything. I just don't think sexuality, regardless of what it might be, should be an oppressing factor in roleplay. I certainly don't enjoy it constantly happening. I can't speak for others.
I love characters. I do not love caricatures in my roleplay.
^ So much this.
The problem, as I see it, is not so much that a certain archetype or a certain thing is written by certain people; it's that it is done for the wrong reasons and becomes the defining aspect.
A tertiary characteristic like sexuality should not be the sole defining feature of a character anymore than any other tertiary characteristic. As I see it, there is no problem with a character that is flirtatious so much as there is a problem with characters that are only flirtatious. Similarly, they should not have violence or weakness as the attributes that alone define them. There is not an inherent problem in possession of these traits so much as there is with them being a vessel for these traits.
With some characters, they flirt, and that is all they do; everything is sexually charged. Others may be evil, and cartoonish cruelty pervades their every action, and they are always torturing or killing, and have no depth beyond these things. This sort of character is legitimately frustrating to deal with, because it is not a full character.
Flirts aren't the problem, villains aren't the problem, and elves aren't the problem. I take issue with people complaining on principle of a character having features that are at times abused. Many elves are poorly roleplayed and simply chosen because they are pretty, but it should not be dealt with (whether or not it must be, I will not say) by taking it out on that group as a whole.
"Oh, another Blood Elf." "Oh, another lesbian." "Oh, another villain." It's the same dismissive elitism that causes the hipster subculture to draw such disdain.
(06-04-2012, 06:45 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]To be fair, I think one of the main reasons derision isn't as often aimed at females playing gay males is simply because it doesn't happen as often. They are just as prone to RPing a poorly crafted character falling into too many stereotype traps as men playing lesbians tend to. Similarly, there seems to be a thing where women will often get annoyed at how men play women, but men don't tend to feel as offended on how women play men. Again, probably because the latter doesn't happen as often as the former.
Point, yet I don't quite agree that it's only that it's more common, nor do I think that sexism is soley to blame. All factors likely play some role in part - and, to be quite brutally honest, many women who play men simply do it better than some of their counterparts, in my experience. As to why, I cannot say.
There are more than a few women-who-play-men I've seen who make the same mistakes as their opposites, although they're usually skewed by societal conventions and it doesn't show in quite the same way. Typically, the men I know find it more amusing than offensive, but men aren't generally reduced soley to their baser parts by culture at large and it is thus less likely to strike a nerve than it is with women.
As for myself, I do find it a bit irritating when I see women playing the generic brooding, beautiful, openshirted starry-eyed man of their dreams who simultaneously fulfills their every wish yet just isn't understood by those about him. Poorly-written fanservice goes both ways, but that from men seems to trend towards the less overtly sexual and so is is viewed by most as less offensive.
Also - to clarify, I meant to imply I have a tendency to play female characters in part because the perspective interests me, and (I have come to realize) in part because of gender identity troubles this allows me to express. I did not mean to imply that I did so for titillation: merely that I find the accusations often levied of doing so as rather quaint, as many are guilty of such in more 'traditional' roleplays yet endure no such derision.
I think I've made a mention of this before, but I've expressed interest in rolling a female character. Its something that I've never done as an RP'r, and the intrigue of viewing a narrative through a completely different perspective excites me. Part of the appeal of role-playing is the freedom it gives an author to explore characters far removed from their own being. While most of my characters do find their inspiration on a few of my own personal quirks, I take them far beyond that and twist them around for something new.
I have a profile for a human female that's half-way done. Its sitting somewhere in my abyss of word document files, collecting dust alongside Corlmitz's Heart of Darkness style narrative and all of Rofupi's everything. I haven't been able to bring myself to finish the character and bring her to the RP realm for precisely the reasons people are discussing in this thread. Meaning, I'm terrified of being one of those players that so many denigrate openly.
This is mostly due to my own...sensitivity to gender and societal issues. I'm a Marxist at heart, and it causes me to view everything in terms of class and power struggle. I don't want to perpetuate negative stereotypes or add to the problem of objectifying the female arch-type, which happens so much in the gaming industry. And even if I work my hardest to avoid doing that, the stigma that gets attached to men who even dare think about RP'ing a female is something that makes me hesitant to think about it.
I know I shouldn't care. I should just go ahead and do it. And, I'm also sure that I'm the only person who's going to analyze my characters on deep psychological / class level. No ones going to look at my character's choice of weaponry and go "HRM THATS A VERY PHALLIC CHOICE OF WEAPON SHE HAS THERE WAY TO RE-ENFORCE THE IDEA OF THE CASTRATION COMPLEX MR. OEDIPUS WOULD YOU LIKE TO SET BACK WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE WHILE YOU'RE AT IT?" I don't do that to other people's characters, so why should I assume that they would do it to me?
Its all very silly, in the end. I think us role-players are a very silly breed of people. We get outraged for silly reasons, do silly things, and are constantly vying for the affection of our peers. But, regardless, this element of judgement and backlash does play an element in how I explore certain archetypes and narratives. I'm certain other players are affected by this as well.
Krent's post pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue. I often have a hard time deciding whether I should create an idea I have for a female character, in fear of offending someone.
My only frequently played female is Maleeka, a Draenei Death Knight. While I originally made her pre-restart for some brother/sister RP with Kira, she eventually developed into her own character. While I have other females, she's the only one I play a lot, and the only one I really feel anything around. The other females I've created over the months I've been here have either been deleted or I've simply kept them because I'm not sure what to do with them.
If anything, I'm pretty proud when I entered Teamspeak once, and almost gave another player a heartattack because they had thought I was a girl OOCly, too, because of my character.
*Shrug*
Food for thought.
Also, as a side-note: On the topic of sexuality, I've only had one homosexual character. And despite being heterosexual IRL, I still think I manage to pull him off well. That's probably because I didn't make him homosexual. I made his personality long ago, and have RPed with him for a long time. However, after several remarks OOCly and IC, mostly jokingly in nature, I recently decided I'd make him homosexual.
The character in question is obvious for those in the Black Harvest: Malachai. (Yes, it's official.)
On a completely unrelated note: I feel like J.K. Rowling now.
Why did it derive to lesbians? I mean who should care about that?
I love how these threads are derailing and really have no more initial purpose. Okay got it, we stop making jokes about character races. If someone asks to stop, just stop. Is it so hard?
I feel I'll play Kreeva a thousand times more in the coming days ... :trollface: