Conquest of the Horde

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...I wonder why people are going with the assumption that it was ERP/something questionable.

I'll say this once, with all due respect and honesty: It wasn't.

It was just a Halloween/Hallow's End costume party, no different from taking a Warrior and putting him in Mage robes and giving him a staff and having him walk around BB waving his hands around and trying(And failing, obviously) to cast spells.

And yes, I can understand the need for power. It's not that power should not be used to enforce rules, and I apologize if I came off that way, I'm sorry. What I am saying is that power should not be misused.

Now, for some deleeshus constructiveness that we all enjoy:

Talk to people. Seriously. Talk to them. It's exactly what this thread is about, and it's more than admirable. Break the Player/GM barrier of nonhumanity/robotness(Yes, I am making up words here), and have Player to GM talks like humans, from equal points of view. The way I would've handled it is this:

'So, hey. Sorry guys. We just found it funny is all. We don't tend to laugh nor watch people without due cause. We're just doing our jobs.'
'Sure thing. No prob. Keep being on the lookout for people that do break the rules, thus providing a safer, happier community for all.'
/And the crowd cheers!

Seriously. It's that simple. Talk to people and be honest about it. Lots and lots of posts all condensed into 4+1/2 lines on 1024x768.

I've said everything I wanted to say on this matter. Dropping it, as of now.

flammos200 Wrote:Talk to people. Seriously. Talk to them. It's exactly what this thread is about, and it's more than admirable. Break the Player/GM barrier of nonhumanity/robotness(Yes, I am making up words here), and have Player to GM talks like humans, from equal points of view.

I told myself I'd stay out of this, but, err. . .Yeah. . . That. Sometimes when people do silly or dumb stuff, there's a valid reason behind it. However, talking from equal points of view shouldn't be done, since in that case, it's way too easy for the player to just come with some stupid excuse. Be more critical than a player would, but you should still talk to a person before bringing down the hammer on them for whatever reason. Then it's up to the player to actually listen and talk back like a mature human being.

@Rigley: I get your point Rigley, and GMs should be allowed to watch RP, but like OP said, "abusing" your powers for your own amusement, making fun of others is not cool. If the players hear that the GMs are breaking the rules, what would prevent the players from doing the same thing? And instead of apologizing, the GMs -lied- to the player, just to continue their sillyness. I find that rather immature and disrespectful.

@Zarquon: Your wise choice of words wants to make me blast your brain out, but you seem to have another perspective. What she is trying to say(I think) is not that GMs can't be human, and can't watch RPs, but going invisible, lying to a player and watching them, making fun of them on vent is what she was pissed about. GMs are supposed to be the role-figures to this server, and without those - immaturity will reign upon us and we shall be wiped from the surface of this world!/shit will go down.

My two cents here, I think it's extremely difficult to point a finger at any specific GM, because quite frankly, as I've seen just in this thread alone, when that happens they get super-defensive to the point of almost not listening to anything being said. Not to mention, it puts the person who says it in quite an awkward position, as since they don't have the power or sway that the GM in question has, they seldom have a solid leg to stand on when trying to confront them.

GMs here have the power to -basically- say sit down and shaddap, and the players aren't as luxurious.

Edit: To elaborate, I -do- think it's easier for people to approach the GM team as a whole in such a manner though. It's recieved better to say "Well, this is what I see from the GM team", rather than "This is what I see from So-and-So".

However, this is duel edged, because now we are being asked to elaborate and it's just... so hard to do.

Honestly, the topic is starting to feel less like "Brutal" honesty, and more like slight-honesty-with-strict-guidlines.

1. GM's being one group, players being another.

This, sadly, is just how it feels to me most of the time. Player's change when a GM arrives, and generally for good reason, a good few of us are worried about getting temporary bans and such when we should just be able to treat you like any other player, but unless I know the GM specifically, I feel somehow threatened, like if I step a toe out of line then the metaphorical poop might hit the fan. Originally it was an irrational fear, like of authority, but its slowly grown to being real when I've seen a simple disagreement go from bad to worse the moment a GM stepped in, because each player stops being rational in discussing it and instead tries to make the other player out to be the one to blame, in the hope that they can somehow avoid receiving the ban hammer or other such things. Honestly, the thing I dislike most in this whole thing, is the "flashing the GM badge", where two people are discussing a point, then one reveals they are a GM by flashing the GM badge, and as such it seems they feel they can totally disregard the other player, because they are the GM and therefore automatically right. It just seems an...almost bullying way to resolve the situation, using the GM tag in that way, and I cant see any warrant for using it unless it is in a case of actual serious rule breaking, such as racist or offensive language.

2. GM coverage.
This one is a little more personal, but I wish the different time-zones could have a little bit more GM coverage. Its a bit disheartening as a Euro player that I know that in a good amount of cases I wont ever get to speak to a GM until it is an appropriate time on US time. I'm not saying US GM's have to be on, to attend to the needs of those outside US times, as that's just an unreasonable request. But maybe some more GM's from different time-zones would help, as I can't keep bringing myself to wait till midnight or later if I need to speak to a GM. Not essential, and I know there are not nearly as many Euro or otherwise players on CotH, but it would be nice

I don't like being brutally honest, but I felt if a GM has asked for it with a promise to listen, then i'm very grateful for it. And I'd like to clarify, on the vast majority of things, I am very very happy with the server, and enjoy my time here more than any other RP server.

PS. Also, spelling and grammar pro's. I know my spelling and grammar isn't the best when trying to type something out quickly, but I find it hard to get a balance between getting everything perfect, and spending 2 minutes per post.

I'm here to have fun, and while I respect that people like it to be neat, people will just have to acknowledge that not everyone has a natural talent for getting spelling and grammar 100% while typing fast. I try my best, I don't feel its fair to to get snide or just plain mean remarks by whisper or general if I make the occasional mistake.

Etmosril Wrote:All right, now that I have a little time...

Spoiler:
Anyhow. I'd meant to leave this by the wayside when it happened (partially because I didn't recognize the GMs involved, and partially because it was impossible to catch in the act), but I feel perhaps it's time to share some more personal grievances. This one is probably the most infuriating of all to me.

Around Halloween, Flammos200 and I were roleplaying Lene and Arlyn having their Halloween festivities. We decided to move off to a secluded part of Eversong (West Sanctum) since it was private rp, and we didn't want it to be in Silvermoon to keep it from being disrupted. It was very clearly between two people, and not open to others.

I checked Account Management and Player Map because I was getting a very odd feeling ... and saw that multiple GMs were standing inside/next to West Sanctum while invisible. None of them had any IC reason to be there, nor did they even reveal their presence. Fel, they never even got permission to watch.

In the words of Grakor:

Grakor Wrote:To make something clear, if you want to go OOC and watch someone else's RP without being there ICly, you must first obtain the permission of all parties involved. You also cannot be in stealth without express permission (otherwise, if you're stealthed you're assumed to be IC.) We don't want players feeling uncomfortable to continue RP, and we don't want players spying on one another OOCly.

Punishment for just walking up and watching RP without permission is the same as harassment, as that is exactly what it is.

They continued to stand there even after we stopped emoting, and were panicking in /p chat. I whispered one of them to ask why they he was there, and I was told that our characters had been used as an anchor point to teleport to Eversong Woods. For three GMs. Who were all standing there in the exact area, and stayed there for several minutes - only leaving after I spoke to one of them.
Within several minutes, they had all cleared out.

We were whispered not long after by McKnighter, who told us that a certain GM had mentioned the abnormal flagRSPs we both have, and that those present in Vent were making fun of us for it. Specifically, the strangely-colored eyes both characters have, which are legitimate and were obtained during our IC prestige storyline. Anyhow, McKnighter told the denizens of Vent the information, and they stopped. Massive numbers of kudos to him.

There. I think there are a lot of things wrong with this scenario. First of all, GMs were ignoring several very basic rules of the server: to not watch people without permission, and to show respect to others. I could understand it if people in the area wandered over, or a friend got curious and stealthed up on us to see what we were doing, but GMs? They're supposed to know better. Furthermore, to use the GM commands as a way to spy on other people during private RP is nothing short of rank abuse.

Then, instead of possibly asking why we had the odd flagRSP profiles (which we would have been glad to tell the people on Vent), at least one GM was either encouraging others to make fun of us, or letting disrespectful slander slide. The GMs were the only ones present in the area. I find it a little too much coincidence that some normal player would just happen to look up our profiles at the exact same time we were being watched.
Finally, they lied to us, which I found most objectionable of all.

I'd like to make something perfectly clear here. I'm willing to make up, or forget it ever happened. But since the OP requested brutal honesty, that's what I'm delivering. Why didn't I post this before? Because it was nigh impossible to get conclusive evidence - and without it, I'm not sure if anyone will believe me. If you'd like more verification, feel free to whisper myself, Flammos200, or McKnighter (maybe not him, since he's on hiatus.) And I'm not giving out the names of the GMs. You know who you are and that's what matters to me now.

Whew... I feel a lot better for having finally said this.

Edit: I was thinking of it as more of a RP guideline violation than a Vent issue
.

I'd like to bring something up, and you know what, I'll be honest as it has effected my play on this server.

The issue that the GM's do this was brought up by an ex-GM last summer in his farewell post. That GM got banned. Now, I'm not sugarcoating anything here, because he did cross the line elsewhere in the post by insulting other GM's and players, amongst other things. But one of the things he mentioned seriously effected my play on this server, and that was that GM's as do this, and that they have a secret forum to talk about individual players. I decided that was some Orwellian bullshit, but I felt it was unfair to the GM's. Maybe, just maybe, that guy rage-quitting was making it up, trying to start drama. Then again, the GM's are only human, and well, humans love to look at other people to laugh at, simply for the express purpose of stroking their egos. I've done it too.

Even if the whole part about the forum isn't true, this just proves he was right that the GM's do go out of their way to make fun of other players. It may get to the point of harassment, and people are just too scared to say anything for fear of retribution. I feel like I spent, what was in my opinion, too much time on the server trying to not piss off any of the GM's in anyway for that very reason. During my first few months on the server, me and another player, who I won't name, did things. I won't go into details.. But the idea that the GM's might have popped in, and saw anything at all, probably just us sitting there, disheartens me. It makes me lose faith in them.

How would s GM feel if I constantly made fun of them behind their backs? They wouldn't like it, that's for sure. The only difference between me and the GM who I am making fun of is that if the GM ever found out, he could immediately take disciplinary action. But the other way around? I have to go through Kretol and Grakor. And they get over nine thousand PM's a day.

So, perhaps a forum should be made where people can lodge formal complaints against a member of a GM staff. No, it won't be pretty. But at least things can be more quickly discussed. This would also dissuade GM's from doing inappropriate behavior because if they do so, then the entire server will know. And it won't just be rumor and speculation.

Let us get rid of that rumor right now.

The secret forum is not designed as a place to ridicule people privately. The forum is a drab place where GMs store logs and file complaints against players. It is a place we go when we wish to see if a player has a record of bad conduct, much like a police record.

We keep it hidden because making it visible would put all the players past crimes and embarrassing mistakes in a public forum.

Think about this: Would you want people having the ability to look up every one of your mistakes?

Rosencrat Wrote:Let us get rid of that rumor right now.

The secret forum is not designed as a place to ridicule people privately. The forum is a drab place where GMs store logs and file complaints against players. It is a place we go when we wish to see if a player has a record of bad conduct, much like a police record.

We keep it hidden because making it visible would put all the players past crimes and embarrassing mistakes in a public forum.

Think about this: Would you want people having the ability to look up every one of your mistakes?

The My Little Pony thing? Not my fault. Honest.

[Image: 1248774.png?1298420208]

Rosencrat Wrote:Let us get rid of that rumor right now.

The secret forum is not designed as a place to ridicule people privately. The forum is a drab place where GMs store logs and file complaints against players. It is a place we go when we wish to see if a player has a record of bad conduct, much like a police record.

We keep it hidden because making it visible would put all the players past crimes and embarrassing mistakes in a public forum.

Think about this: Would you want people having the ability to look up every one of your mistakes?

No, I suppose not. I don't mean to start drama, just trying to bring something up that has irked me for some time. However, I think it would be nice if we some kind of access to our thread of mistakes. Mainly so we can see what people have complained about, and what we can do to change that. If I have a thread a hundred pages long about mistakes I've made, I'd like to be able to see it so that I can figure out a way to not have it become hundred and one pages long.

Honestly, I would. But that's just me. I can see why it's hidden and I agree it should stay there. Keeps down elitism by just looking someone up and saying, "No, you've done ______: therefore you cannot RP with us."

If you look, guys, I think this thread is accomplishing something in the tones of language used.

Wahey!

Quote:So, perhaps a forum should be made where people can lodge formal complaints against a member of a GM staff. No, it won't be pretty

Suggestion! Perhaps add a forum that is used to file in 'official' complaints and issues regarding GMs, which holds the threads you did not made invisible. Aka you can see your thread, so you know it's there and readable for GMs, and GMs themselves can all pitch in to discuss things or to give a explanation where needed. You could see the thread, GMs could, Admins could. You would -not- be able to read other player's their complaints, and perhaps instigate a rule that the things in those threads should not be discussed outside that forum.

As long as it's posted in a mature manner, (I'm not saying sugar-coated here, just no flames, be honest, put your feelings in that thread.) I can imagine people having the feeling their thread (Aka complaint) is dealt with and noticed by all the GMs. Admins could eventually wrap the thread up and possibly write their opinion in.

I would recommend to not archive it, so if a player has reasons in the future for complaints and such, he can re-read his old thread(s) and possibly quote GM answers and Admin their answers from there. This way, if a promise is made for some form of improvement, it is measurable to see if that improvement actually was made.

Edit: A good thread naming out line would be:

[Date: day/month/year possibly] [Place] [Few words about the thread]

So no titles as "Because of that Psychyn." "Pschyn pissed me off" etc, but:

[23-02-2011] [Intern spot] [Suggestion complaint forum]

How's that? I'll try to word it better / clarify it if needed when I get home. I think it's pretty understandable though! <3

...Why not make it so Kretol only has access to it, and no players or other GMs can see it but him? Or is there something like that? As I've said before, it's hard to say something about a GM here, because the complaints are seen by everyone, and that's not the case when a complaint is made to a player, obviously.

We should have the ability to have our complaints about GMs hidden too, yeah?

... So why not PM Kretol then? Or Grakor, or the entire GM team if you want them all to see it.

Quote:...Why not make it so Kretol only has access to it, and no players or other GMs can see it but him? Or is there something like that? As I've said before, it's hard to say something about a GM here, because the complaints are seen by everyone, and that's not the case when a complaint is made to a player, obviously.

We should have the ability to have our complaints about GMs hidden too, yeah?

Possible, but I was fearing that would cause for a lack of communication. I think we should be able to talk with the GMs, even the ones we have had issues with in the past. If not, Kretol has to pass on everything to his team, which will have to be passed back to the forum thread which is sort off, like PMing Kretol then.

Why not open our complaints up (and partly ourselves), say how we feel and how something made us feel in all honesty?

Then again, I'd be more in favor of making it a thread option if that's able to be done on this forum, then the player him/herself can choose whether to allow all GMs to read it, just some, or none at all.

Edit for Nostra:

Quote:... So why not PM Kretol then? Or Grakor, or the entire GM team if you want them all to see it.

See as it as a complaint archiving system, the player can re-read old explanations without having to have them within his PM box or on his harddrive. If a event occures again, that was previously complained about the user has something to look back on and quote.

I think it would at least give the feeling of being able to talk about things, and I would personally have the idea (if I didn't!) that things are taken care off and discussed.

(I do already believe that, but it's just a idea.)

I'm amazed this is still going, anyway, I thought Grakor and such were supposed to deal with complaints, especially ones about GM's. An archiving system has a huge "Chaos" target on it, but, that's just my opinion really.

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flammos200

Roxas65

Jurkey

DiesUltime

Miah

SpiralLateralus

Rosencrat

hiddengecko

SpiralLateralus

Ben

Psychyn

DiesUltime

Nostra

Psychyn

JackofBlades